Who Is The Leader In Car Audio Forums???

I think you may have misread my posts then. I have many times said that they make good drivers. All I did was say that the A wasn't in the same league as the Brahma. But some people for some reason read into my comment that the A was the worse sub in the world or something, and got defensive. But please provide a link of "slanderous defemation" toward ED's products by me. I very much doubt that you could find it. [/b][/quote]
Not in the same league? That's interesting since I've talked to a couple people who prefer the A over the Brahma. Yes, I know it doesn't use XBl2, and it doesn't have as much linear excursion, but you and Seth doesn't seem to want to accept that numbers don't and never will dictate what people like. Sorry to digress, but the anti-eD feeling on this forum is about as strong as the pro-eD sentiment on CAF and SIN.

First and foremost, I'll be the first to admit I'm not a fan of the Brahma. I'll never use a driver that is so fundamentally ugly. The new MKII would look decent mounted inverted, but that logo is so damn fugly it's beyond belief. And there are quite a few people who have this same feeling.

With that said, Adire is not the end-all, and it won't be. The A's are cosmetically more appealing in every aspect, and most people (not all) agree with this. Does this matter in the way it sounds? Hell no, but if looks didn't matter, then cars would all look the same. Is eD the end all? Nope, but if you look at the overall package, I certainly consider the A to be in the same league and a desirable alternative to the Brahma.

This is just my $0.02. I'm sure the Adire folk on here will be more than happy to respond. :2guns:

 

Chad, you are putting words into my mouth man. I never said that no one will actually prefer the A over the Brahma. I know of some people who belive an Eclipse Alum is better than the W7 (I kid you not, it was a thread on CAF). There is no ED hate here at all (but apparently you and Bowers feel there is), but there will be no suppression of the negatives of any company, and sometimes ED falls into this group... But so does Adire, JL, HSL, Cadence, Pioneer, Alpine... whatever.

Most of us here simply prefer Adire over ED, and the most active members here have been shit on in some form or another by the ED or the ED followers. Sometimes our bias may show through, but no-one here bashes EDs product. They make great gear, but they are not as (and this is objectively speaking, not subjectively ) faithful in musical reproduction as some of the woofers they are compared to. However, the dollar to performance ratio cannot be denied, and I don't ever really see that denied here.

Sure, people may like the sound of the A better than any other driver. That is subjective, and what someone likes isn't always what is really the best (Not just in SQ, from an objective standpoint of course, but build quality, or maybe cosmetics, etc). A good example of this is your deciding on purchasing an audio product would eliminate a certain product because of it's appearance . I don't personally care what it looks like, it is in my trunk after all (but I personally like the logo, maybe I am just strange). But I do care what it sounds like. Does that make you wrong? No. Does it make me right? No.

This is all subjective. And it is your preferance. And your opinion will not be suppressed. So why are you so intent on us suppressing our opinion?

 

I have no intention of surpressing your opinion. However, I will ARGUE that the eD is in the same league as the Brahma, and that is something both you and Stephen are guilty of saying and professing. I have the right to disagree with y'all, and I've done so. And I've given my reasons for thinking so. If you disagree, feel free to argue my points. :boxing:

Hehe.

 

In Seth's defense (you better save this one man ) he has never said he disliked the sound of an eD sub he's heard. Now, with that said, to my knowledge the only one he's heard is the K series, both the original model and the flat cone model. For the money those subs are awfully tough to beat IMO, but i wouldn't say they're the best subs i've ever heard either. I haven't heard an eD A series though so I can't speak to it in relation to the w7 or the Brahma.

But Seth, lets not make generalizations about who prefers what on this forum. I think that's exactly what you and Stephen are trying to get away from if I'm not mistaken.

 

Ohh Chad, it is not just the Members, I will never go to a site that requires you registar just to veiw it, If CAF did that tommorow I would stop posting there


Just of overall feeling I have when I was going to that site, maybe it has changed, I dont know, nor do I care, I will never go there again [/b][/quote]
What's the big deal with having to register for a site? I never understood that.

Besides, as much as you like to talk Mike, i'd think you'd want to register so you could voice your opinion .

 

I think its truly insulting to the ED A to say its not in the same league as the Brahma. Afterall, wasn't it designed to fit into the super sub catagory? I mean, if you dont think its as good, thats fine, but not even on the same playing field? That aint right. I prefer how the Dub Sebbin sounds over the brahma, but the brahma is definately on the same playing field

Seth, MOST on this forum does not prefer Adire over ED. Most just haven't heard the A to have a true unbiased opinion on it.. If i had to choose between the Shiva and K, i'd choose the K. Sure the Shiva has an ungodly low end, but look at how big a box you need for it. Other than the low end, i dont think the Shiva has any other high points to the K. I could live with that.. I'd definately need to hear the A before i can pick sides (Adire or Elemental Designs). Chad didn't specify any other reason than cosmetics, but there's other reasons i wont use the brahma. 1 being your thoughts that its the best woofer, and i would love to do nothing more than prove you wrong.. Also, tonally, i prefer the Dub Sebbin. The brahma has some great qualities, but tonally i dont prefer it. Also, the MKII looks a lot better than the brahma of old, but i would never show the face of the brahma. Its definately that chick at work that wants to give me the goods, but i wont accept because she looks like a mud duck, but man does she have an ass that could drive a nail into a brick wall! :lmfao:

 

I did mention cosmetics in that I think you have to look at the whole package of the subwoofer, not strictly "the numbers." The package includes things like cosmetics (you know which I prefer), build quality (Destilj has a HORRID reputation), warranty (not sure of the Adire warranty), and customer service. Of course performance is key, but when I'm thinking of "super subs," the ones that comes to mind are W7, eD A, Brahma, XXX, and IDMAX. There are others, of course, but it's not strictly the Bl curve that should be used to determine what league they are in when in all reality the performance of these subs is going to be somewhat similar.

 

That is a total lie!!! I've continuously stated I think ED subs sound like ass .

Chris is correct. I have never said I didn't like the ED drivers That includes the sound, and build quality (which I have defended their failure rate several times as TOTALLY acceptable) but appearance, well the A's motor is sexy, but I don't like flat piston drivers, they just look... fake. If fact, my very kind (and I know I surprised alot of people with my honest review ) reviews of the drivers are on many forums. I very kindly compared them to Shivas, even pointing out the advantages that the ED K series has over (one of my all time favorite) Shiva drivers.

But Chris, reread my post, I pointed out my personal preferance for Adire above, and I am sure it is well known throughout the forums. Hell, I will not hide it. But people saying my affinity for them is strictly because I am a dealer is way off base. As you can attest, I was Adire driven way before I was a dealer. When I recieved my dealership I was as giddy as a schoolgirl (I think I even called you up right away didn't I?). I also pointed out why some of us respond somewhat negatively about ED (which I assure you is true). I will point out my personal preferances, and stick by them. However, I will also always try to point out objective data in referance to a post at hand (unless it is strictly an opinion driven topic). Sometimes I forget, sure, but I try.

 

Does the Brahma have some features (XBL2) that makes it a better SQ sub? Yes. Does it cost a little more than the ED A? Yes. That is why I don't think they are quite in the same league. I see no difference between the ED A and the Audiomobile Mass performance wise. They both use SGLC TC Sounds motors with some very slight changes. They in my opinion are in the same league. A while ago there were long threads comparing the Mass and Brahma, and several of those that agreed that the Brahma was slightly superior, now feel the A is in the same league. Why? Mainly personal bias. But it doesn't stop there. The Eclipse subs are also very similar to the Mass and the A. And many people have said that the Brahma is slightly better. I'm sure with a little research, we will find MANY different subs that are VERY similar to the A.

What I'm trying to say is that the A is nothing special. It is just one more design with slight differences from a very popular motor. The Brahma is one of the very few low distortion subs on the market and pulls this off with a very ingenius new motor topology. This puts it one tier higher in my opinion. Now whether you like the sound or not, that is up to you and is subjective. But from an objective point of view, it performs a little better.

Now please don't read this and get in your head that I am saying the A, Mass, Eclipse, etc. subs are horrible subs. For some reason you guys seem to keep reading this into my posts when in actuality it isn't there. I think very highly of all those subs. But I think the Brahma, XXX, and W7 are all slightly better.

 

So basically, the XBL2 motor makes the Brahma better than other subs on the market? Numbers and graphs show the low distortion of the brahma, but can you hear more distortion in woofers such as the A, Mass, Eclipse, Dub Sebbin and others at normal listening conditions?

 

The responses I get from everyone who has heard them says yes. Several of them have commented that they didn't like the airyness, or clarity of the Brahma. After listening to subs with distortion for so long, it is kind of odd hearing a Brahma, which has none.

 

The responses I get from everyone who has heard them says yes. Several of them have commented that they didn't like the airyness, or clarity of the Brahma. After listening to subs with distortion for so long, it is kind of odd hearing a Brahma, which has none. [/b][/quote]
Well, Cort has heard my Brahma in a few installs, so he is familliar with it Steven.

I will venture a slightly opposing view here as well.

The Dub has it's own very unique features (primarily resting on that incredible suspension, imagine that suspension and the XBL2 topology... Ooooh, gets me all hard) that allow for a low distortion reproduction. I am still a bit baffled by it's tremendous frequency responce with such a long coil, but eh, that is why I don't design them .

I think the Dub is definately a superwoofer and it belongs in the upper echilon (did I spell that correctly?) of woofers. my presonal opinion is that it shares that space with 2 other woofers, bordering on 3 (this is strictly CA here). I have had the opportunity to hear an IDMax and might include it in my "superwoofer" category. I was totally impressed with it's reproduction as well. Personally, I have not had enough experiance with it, or enough desire to research it fully (family, buisness, work, and you guys keep me too busy), so my hats off to it, but I still would like some time with it, and to go further into researhing it.

This is not to say that there are no other drivers so close out there to be considered "worthy" to join this elite group. I think what I consider superwoofer is going beyond ordinary design concepts. Now, that is not to say that typical designs with some tweeking cannot be world class, it is just a differant category of woofer (IMHO).

I understand what Steven is saying, and I hope I represent it well here. I am not sure it is coming across right though.

It is not an insult to the design of these standard motors and suspensions, it is simply a testament to the fresh new ideas presented by the subs I (and I think Steven) consider "superwoofers".

 

That is a total lie!!! I've continuously stated I think ED subs sound like ass .

Chris is correct. I have never said I didn't like the ED drivers That includes the sound, and build quality (which I have defended their failure rate several times as TOTALLY acceptable) but appearance, well the A's motor is sexy, but I don't like flat piston drivers, they just look... fake. If fact, my very kind (and I know I surprised alot of people with my honest review ) reviews of the drivers are on many forums. I very kindly compared them to Shivas, even pointing out the advantages that the ED K series has over (one of my all time favorite) Shiva drivers.

But Chris, reread my post, I pointed out my personal preferance for Adire above, and I am sure it is well known throughout the forums. Hell, I will not hide it. But people saying my affinity for them is strictly because I am a dealer is way off base. As you can attest, I was Adire driven way before I was a dealer. When I recieved my dealership I was as giddy as a schoolgirl (I think I even called you up right away didn't I?). I also pointed out why some of us respond somewhat negatively about ED (which I assure you is true). I will point out my personal preferances, and stick by them. However, I will also always try to point out objective data in referance to a post at hand (unless it is strictly an opinion driven topic). Sometimes I forget, sure, but I try. [/b][/quote]
Just for the record i didn't bring your being an Adire dealer into this issue . I'm stating your preferences and habits without considering that.

 

I noticed that maybe I should have been more careful, but my above statements weren't about the "Dub". I have never heard of it before until now, and don't know anything about it. But you guys definitely peaked my interest.

Even still, those woofers may be "superwoofers". I just feel that the Brahma, XXX, and W7 are on the very top of the heap when it comes to "superwoofers" due to their low distortion designs. Maybe that is the problem here, that there is just a misunderstanding of what is meant. And that could very well be because I wasn't clear in my comments. So if that was the problem, for that I do apologize.

By no means do I think the ED A is in the same league as a cheap Sony sub. I definitely think it has "superwoofer" status due to it's very good design, high excursion, and higher price (but still good value).

 

The dub is a W7. Cort has taken a liking to that apparently

 

Nobody answered my question. I realize you think the XXX, brahma, and Dub Sebbin is the top of the stack, and i wont dispute that at all. But my question is, Can you or anybody else hear that distortion you claim the others have at a normal listening level? We're talkin about SQ here. Not what a woofer does at 150db.

Honestly steve, i fear that your top picks minus the w7 are biased to the XBL2 motor topology.

 

IMO yes. The lack of transparency in lesser woofers is a good example of the distortion you hear. While it may not be as apparent, it is still somewhat present.

You know when someone gets in my car, I call the Brahma the sleeping giant, and listening to normal musical levels it is almost invisible, but when I put the nut to it, it is just obscene? There you have it.

 

I'll add an example, even in a fairly low distortion driver like the K or Shiva, you are very aware of their presance at lower levels. The Brahma is just like a reinforcement. (just an example here, I am not bashing on either the Shiva or K, both are amoung the best cost/performance IMHO)

 

transparency.... as meaning they blend in well with the fronts and you cant tell
where it's coming from?

is that not just a function of how low your fronts go? or where you set the
crossover at?


there must be a reason for it - i mean, supposedly the distortion is not
noticable discernable till there's pretty high excursion... and the BL curves
ARE pretty flat for both the B12 and the 12A...