Ups Dropped Off A Rather Lite Package Today..

I do!

The 10" sub has that huge surround that buys it a larger cone, and not to mention about 1/2 the surround is behaving as an extension of the cone, factored into Sd calculation...
I wouldn't think that a 10W7 would be compromised much in terms of Sd compared to the traditional cone of the 12" Brahma (but I'm not looking at specs).

The 10W7 has a slightly better efficiency also, I believe.

And the power being input to the subs was still decently close, close enough to be comparable.

And Seth's Brahma is in a ported enclosure, but tuned to something exceptionally low like 26 Hz or something.
It's not comparing "sealed vs. sealed", but it wouldnt' have the huge dB gain of a competition 45Hz tuned ported enclosure either.

I'm actually quite surprised after talking to him on the phone, how much difference there was!

I've heard a 10W7 in an extended-cab Nissan truck, in JL's "high output" ported enclosure, on a 500/1, and it's very impressive.
Not sure exactly what went wrong in Seth's car...

 

Even tuned low he's going to see a gain in the ported enclosure. It's not a fair comparison, no matter how you look at it. Let's assume sd is about the same. The 10W7 is receiving a 200-250 watts less and it's in a sealed enclosure. I certainly would not expect them to have the same output.

 

And there is still a difference in Sd.

10W7 = 0.0386 m^2
Brahma 12 = .0436 m^2

Not a huge difference, but when you add that to the power difference and the enclosure difference, I would most certainly expect the Brahma to win easily in output.

 

I have my B12 in 2.5 cu.ft. sealed, receiving ~450 watts, and it moves very nicely. Comparable to my best friends 12W7 + 1000/1 + W7 Subzone box, IMO. Just not quite as loud. =)

 

Chad,

While I agree I didn't expect it to "keep up" with the Brahma, I had NO idea the differance would be so vastly significant. When Cort got in the car he looked at me rolling his eyes and said, "C'mon man, turn on the sub". No shit, I mean those were almost his, if not his exact words... I had the sub turned up.

In all seriousness, it was just not enough woofer for my car.

And with my tuning at 23.5 Hz, I really should not see any sigificant gains untill I get way deep...

anyways, I think we may do a bit of modifying the testing we have planned... maybe put the woofers in Corts car instead of mine... just running some long speaker wires from my amp to his car. I don't think his electrical system would be really happy with my Z7000 on it.

The 10W7 is the loudest woofer I have heard in his car. That includes E12K (both flat and E cones), Shiva, Boston Pro 10s, IDQs... hmmm, what else am I missing? Anyways, all pretty stout contenders in terms of output... and the 10W7 bested them all, and easily I might add.

 

Seth,

You know who Leon (Dingaling) is, right? I linked this to him since he's used all the drivers.

His words:

SQ 4 Ding: that i tested both the 10 and 10w7
SQ 4 Ding: and the 10w7 walked all over the brahma10
SQ 4 Ding: in output
SQ 4 Ding: off an arc 2500cxl

In addition:

SQ 4 Ding: the 10w7
SQ 4 Ding: was very close to the brahma 12 sealed
SQ 4 Ding: in the same car
SQ 4 Ding: even my roomate thought so

All setups were sealed.

SQ 4 Ding: 1.3sealed for 10w7, 1.0 sealed for brahma 12
chadillac355: I'm going to quote you on this, if that's all right?
SQ 4 Ding: .5cf sealed for brhama 10
SQ 4 Ding: sure
SQ 4 Ding: i've posted it many times


Leon doesn't want to register on here, but I think his input is quite valid considering he's used all 3 drivers in the same vehicle off the same amplifier.

 

Did the fact that I used both drivers in the same car with the same amp escape you ? In fact, in a couple weeks I will be using all 3 in the same car with the same amp as well, with an assortment of other drivers. I have run the Brahma 12 sealed several differant times in my car (the same car as all the other listening was done in) as well. All the drivers we use will be set up in similar alignments durring our H2H comparison. Cort will be involved and will offer another opinion on the drivers we test. He is an ED fan, and owns the 10W7 I had in my car the other day. He heard it all, and can certainly tell you what I just said.

SQ is really a personal perception. I like the Brahmas smooth output moreso than the punchy W7. However, that is just me. Cort and Chris (BlkX) both like the punch of the W7, where Chris E. (Geolemon) and I have both agreed before that we like the Brahma a bit better. No biggie really.

Don't get me wrong, the 10W7 is a great woofer. It seems as if you think I am saying it is not. I have heard it in 4 differant installs now, and have never said anything bad about it. Quite simply I was pointing out the differance in output between my B12 and the 10W7 being so huge.

You're making too big of a deal out of it Chad.

 

Seth,

Too big of a deal? Right....

The fact of the matter is you were insinuating that the Brahma 12" is a superior driver in terms of SPL, yet the test parameters were by no means a fair way of doing the comparison.

I honestly don't care which driver is louder, since I run neither, not have any intention to since I don't want to drop the money on a W7 and Brahma's are too fugly and too expensive for the performance given the availability of the eD A series.

Irregardless, my point has been trying to get you to understand that using two different size drivers, in different types of enclosures, with different amounts of power is not a fair way to compare the two. Yet, you seem not to want to understand this VERY simple argument.

My posting of Leon's comments is to simply point out that given equal test parameters, the W7 should meet, if not exceed, the output of a Brahma.

Is the Brahma 12 loud? Sure, but it damn well better be in a ported enclosure with anywhere from 850-1700 watts. And if the 10W7 wasn't, then something was not set up properly with your testing.

Damn near every comparison I've ever heard between the two drivers mirrored the results of Leon. Note: we're not talking SQ here, simply output. It would be insane to try and argue you weren't criticizing the output capability of the W7 in comparison to the Brahma.

 

For instance:

"In all seriousness, it was just not enough woofer for my car."

I mean, come on, you're saying the 10W7 lacks output.

And I've been trying hard to tell you that you're test parameters are not valid, and to say that the 10W7 is "not enough woofer" is a poor argument to make.

Leon and his roommate have tested all 3 of these drivers (Brahma 10, 12, and a 10W7) in recommended SEALED enclosures at the same time with an amp that will deliver almost identical power to all 3, and their results certainly do not mirror the statement you made above.

 

Another:

"Cort, I would have kept the W7 in the car longer if I could have heard it over my Kodas. "

 

Chad,

Bottom line, I have had the Brahma in my car with 425 watts sealed and it was still louder. Argue all you want, I don't give a crap. I have heard it, and Cort has heard it as well. Have you? Funny, but I don't recall you being there.

So frankly, considering the fact that you simply were not present at any point in time in the above instances, I'd say your points are totally inaccurate and quite secondary to mine (I was there, it is my car and Brahma after all) and Corts (he was there, it is his W7).

When you are there and have made your own personal observations, feel free to comment, and call me a liar if you feel it is deserved. However, anyone who heard the comparisons will admit the same. You could not hear the W7 over the Kodas.

 

Seth,

For the love of God; do you hear me saying it wasn't louder? Have I said that in your car the 10W7 was louder? ANYWHERE???? NO NO NO NO NO.

I've simply tried to say the test parameters were not fair. Very simple.

2.5 sealed? Isn't the recommended sealed box for a Brahma from 0.7 to 1.5 cubes? http://www.adireaudio.com/mobile_audio/dri...ahma_series.htm

To be fair, you'd have to use a rather large box with the 10W7 to get a similar alignment and make it a fair comparison. Was the 10W7 in a 3 cubic foot sealed box?

Seriously, read my first paragraph. I guarantee with the way the test was done the Brahma 12 should be considerably louder. That's a no-brainer.

But to say the 10W7 isn't enough woofer while not leveling the playing field is crazy.

 

Hehe; this is kinda like clash of the titans. (Since we're both mods; not that that really means much ). I really enjoy these type of arguments since we can keep it civil. On CAF this would get ugly in a hurry.

 

Oh yeah, Adire does reccomend .7 to 1.5, but reccomended power is also greater (about 1000-1600 in these instances if memory serves me correctly). We reached reccomended power and enclosure with the W7. Also, remember this Chad, the W7 in a roughly .71 Qtc alignment will be stronger at or near vehicle resonance than the Brahma in ~.6. The higher the alignment the greater the peak in a sealed enclosure. That is why when I metered the Brahma 12 sealed, I had it in roughly .75 Qtc and .8 Qtc enclosures (.83 and .6 Cu ft respectively).

Now, 2.5 feet with 425 watts was considerably weaker in output than the current install, and the .83 with 1700 as well.

But enough ranting... Soon we will be conducting some tests of several woofers in similar alignments with reccomended power on each. Included will be the B12, B10, and 10W7. If you are looking for "accurate controlled testing" that will be it...

I never stated the testing was in any way accurate or controlled. I simply stated that the 10W7 could not be heard over the Kodas... Truth. I stated the differance between the 2 drivers as far as install should not have been that great to make that big of a differance... Truth I stated the 10W7 was simply not enough woofer for my car... Truth.

The reason it is staying civil, is the simple fact that over here we respect each other more than the weak ass followers on CAF do .

But you are still my bitch

 

Ahh, but I think that if you port that 10W7 and give it the same power as the Brahma 12 is receiving, it could/would be enough driver for you.

Hence why I included Leon's findings in testing the woofers.

It's all a matter of power and enclosure.

:starwars:

You can call me your bitch, as long as you remember that I'm your daddy. B)

While I may not have the post count, just remember who has the title "Super" in front of moderator.

 

Mike asked me if I wanted to be a super mod, but I said no... Too big a playing field. Also, there are no "super" moderators anymore . I only really view 2 or 3 forums and it would be foolish to be attempting to mod all forums when this place gets bigger. Besdies, a system of checks and balances needs to be in place...

Oh, and if you are my daddy and my bitch, that would make us... Ewwwww.

anyways, we will have closer installs to compare later...

Cort, 640 is over rated for a 10W7 I believe (Pmax is 600 isn't it?), so that IS real power for you little softy :rifle: :blowup: :bag:

 

Man, i want to take the time to reply to this...but going out for beer is more important at the moment. I'll reply later.

 

Mr I'm not going to be getting drunk all the time because I am 21... LOL