Subwoofer Polls At Caf

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Oh no... Don't make me do this Chris... :blush: :bag:

WinISD will in no way tell us what a driver will sound like.

I assure you I could take almost any pair of drivers and manipulate the enclosure to make them look the same on WinISD. Yes, even a Funky Pup and a W7.

WinISD is not the issue here, and it is not a valuable tool for determining how a speaker will reproduce music. It is simply an enclosure design program.

 

You're a fuckin idiot ...

I want you to feelcomfortable in your surroundings

 

And, don't forget to include cosmetics and a company's customer service and reputation as important factors in deciding on a sub.

Yeah, I know this doesn't directly affect sound quality and accuracy, but it certainly can serve as a bias. Hehe; what would car audio be without bias?

 

Oh no... Don't make me do this Chris... :blush: :bag:

WinISD will in no way tell us what a driver will sound like.

I assure you I could take almost any pair of drivers and manipulate the enclosure to make them look the same on WinISD. Yes, even a Funky Pup and a W7.

WinISD is not the issue here, and it is not a valuable tool for determining how a speaker will reproduce music. It is simply an enclosure design program. [/b][/quote]
Haha, no that was a legitimate question there buddy. I don't deal much with winISD for that reason (knowing that it doesn't tell you much of anything about how a sub will sound), so i don't know exactly what dictates the response curves .

 

Very true Chad. Cosmetics DO make a sub sound better, at least in these CAF pools we are discussing. I am amazed that the old round Xplods aren't bigger hits than they are .

Also, CS of certain companies is simply perception. I have heard of several people dissatisfied with product and resulting CS, that get ignored or told they followed the wrong path, etc. (this is in no way an attempt at pointing out one company, I think all the aforementioned companies have had at least 1 complaint I know of) and their concerns being swept under the carpet.

Chris...

ISD is not designed to tell us what the sub will sound like. It is simply a theorectical graphical representation of the subs responce in a particular enclosure by using simple TS params.

It is a nice tool for help in determining extention, excursion (very roughly, but it is a good basis), group delay, and impedance curves as well as port tuning and vent mach. However, in no way will it tell you what a sub will sound like.

With an understanding of how certain parameters affect subwoofers responce, as well as a DuMAX indicating KMS and BL linearity (as well as reaffirming Mfg specs), we can roughly determine what a sub will sound like, or at least how accurately it will reproduce music.

Using WinISD for a base enclosure design is something alot of people call foolish. However, if we understand the vehicles acoustical properties, and know what we need to manipulate for good sound in a car, it is one of the finest pieces of freeware out there. Those people laughing at ISD and calling it useless simply do so because they don't know how to properly use the program, or how to design the enclosure to make it work well in their car. They are simply builders... and builders don't know what they are looking at or how it will actually respond in the car. Designers will use the tool, and consider it's shortcomings and advantages, and working off both come up with a great design.

Lemme ask you something Chris, you have been in my car with what, 3 differant enclosures? Have you ever been unimpressed? that is simply 3 differant designs, optimised to work in the car I had to work with. Even knowing your distaste for ported enclosures, you have to admit that my chosen design sounds nothing like a ported design (aside from linear extension beyond what you prefer, [and guys, a sealed 10W7 has too much extension for Chris] but you gotta admit, it is not peaky at all). All the designs were simply WinISD modeled enclosures with some tweeking. I took the benefits, and considered the shortcomings, and twisted it a bit to fit into my application.

Use it for what it was designed for. Consider it's shortcomings and advantages. Realise it is FREE (in this case, you get more than what you paid for ). Don't ever let it be the be-all-end-all reason for your subwoofer selection.

You are using it incorrectly Chris .

 

Very true Chad. Cosmetics DO make a sub sound better, at least in these CAF pools we are discussing. I am amazed that the old round Xplods aren't bigger hits than they are .

Also, CS of certain companies is simply perception. I have heard of several people dissatisfied with product and resulting CS, that get ignored or told they followed the wrong path, etc. (this is in no way an attempt at pointing out one company, I think all the aforementioned companies have had at least 1 complaint I know of) and their concerns being swept under the carpet.

Chris...

ISD is not designed to tell us what the sub will sound like. It is simply a theorectical graphical representation of the subs responce in a particular enclosure by using simple TS params.

It is a nice tool for help in determining extention, excursion (very roughly, but it is a good basis), group delay, and impedance curves as well as port tuning and vent mach. However, in no way will it tell you what a sub will sound like.

With an understanding of how certain parameters affect subwoofers responce, as well as a DuMAX indicating KMS and BL linearity (as well as reaffirming Mfg specs), we can roughly determine what a sub will sound like, or at least how accurately it will reproduce music.

Using WinISD for a base enclosure design is something alot of people call foolish. However, if we understand the vehicles acoustical properties, and know what we need to manipulate for good sound in a car, it is one of the finest pieces of freeware out there. Those people laughing at ISD and calling it useless simply do so because they don't know how to properly use the program, or how to design the enclosure to make it work well in their car. They are simply builders... and builders don't know what they are looking at or how it will actually respond in the car. Designers will use the tool, and consider it's shortcomings and advantages, and working off both come up with a great design.

Lemme ask you something Chris, you have been in my car with what, 3 differant enclosures? Have you ever been unimpressed? that is simply 3 differant designs, optimised to work in the car I had to work with. Even knowing your distaste for ported enclosures, you have to admit that my chosen design sounds nothing like a ported design (aside from linear extension beyond what you prefer, [and guys, a sealed 10W7 has too much extension for Chris] but you gotta admit, it is not peaky at all). All the designs were simply WinISD modeled enclosures with some tweeking. I took the benefits, and considered the shortcomings, and twisted it a bit to fit into my application.

Use it for what it was designed for. Consider it's shortcomings and advantages. Realise it is FREE (in this case, you get more than what you paid for ). Don't ever let it be the be-all-end-all reason for your subwoofer selection.

You are using it incorrectly Chris . [/b][/quote]
Dear god man, did you read what i said? I said i didn't know how the response graphs were calculated...i never claimed to know anything about winISD because i DO NOT USE IT. I do appreciate your explanation of winISD, but don't get me wrong, i know nothing about that program .

As far as my impressions of the Brahma, you know as well as i do that it does not suit my musical taste. However (courtney and i had this conversation the other day), i think if i were the one tuning your car, it may be a different story. Since getting my 9815, i've had plenty of time to play with different settings and change the sound of the entire system by just adjusting a few things here and there. I can make the w7 sound brahma-like (to an extent) and have my components sound closer to the Koda's. So i'm thinking your car may just not be tuned to my liking. I've sat in Courtney's car and changed some things slightly and it sounded much better to me individually, he may not agree, but it helped my perception of his setup.

I still don't like the sound of ported boxes though .

 

I'm gonna attempt to give my understanding of what chris was saying about winISD.. Seems that he was taking a shot at the numbers to performance issue. If the magnum d2 and 15a have the same graphical representations in winISD which uses the number to give you these graphs, then what does that say about getting an idea of a woofers performance by looking at numbers? It says to him that you have 2 different woofers that dont sound the same, yet the numbers (not winISD) say they do.. His mistake is that the graphical representations in winISD dont tell much bout sound, it just tells of frequency responses without the particular car in the equation, excursion, and blah blah blah.. But i do see his point to a certain extent.


When you're talkin about SQ, you CAN NOT comment on something you haven't heard. So, there is where a lot of people make mistakes.. You can say "yea, the sub should do this, and do that, and sound like this", but that is based off objective info, that gives you an IDEA. But SQ is in the eyes of the beholder, not the numbers on a sheet of paper. I'm with whoever it was that said SQ is subjective, and SA (sound accuracy) is objective. The numbers on the peice of paper come from measurements right? The only measuring done in an SQ comp are with a RTA, and who likes who likes how a perfectly RTA'd system sounds? I know i dont. That to me says whats measured means nothing to me when i'm considering what sounds good.

 

First, exactly. Like I said, the numbers can tell me far more about a subwoofer than an ignorant persons ears. End of story, it is not subjective, it is objective.

second, I feel you man... "I own a Sonx Xplod and it was phat... I've never heard a W7 before, but I will vote for the Xplod cuz it is mine and looks cool!!!"

 

You are speaking to sound accuracy here correct?

 

First, exactly. Like I said, the numbers can tell me far more about a subwoofer than an ignorant persons ears. End of story, it is not subjective, it is objective.

second, I feel you man... "I own a Sonx Xplod and it was phat... I've never heard a W7 before, but I will vote for the Xplod cuz it is mine and looks cool!!!" [/b][/quote]
True. But numbers still cannot and will not tell what one person likes and what another dislikes. Hence why people recommend subwoofers based on what they've heard, not how they model or "what the numbers tell them," since most people don't know and most certainly don't care what the numbers say.

 

No, I agree Chad. I am not trying to say that you WILL like the Brahma better than any other driver. Many prefer a punchier driver than the Brahma. However, if we look at objective data, we can see which should perform better (if even just a bit).

But you gotta admit, "Which is better" leaves little room for "I heard X driver only and it is my favorite"... how do you know? It is a comparison based poll.

If I answer these polls (of the which do you prefer variety, subjective I mean), I will usually not vote, but I will post my observations of the drivers in the poll, and mention that I have not heard X driver if I didn't. If I heard all the drivers, I will place a vote, but I cannot always say that.