Experienced Numbers

Oh yeah - I leave all posters in this forum with a challenge

How a speaker sounds is certainly 100% subjective. So explain to me how you can read some data....and tell me how its going to sound. When in fact it won't sound the same to me anyhow... :bash:

Take the Dumax Certified sheet that you have in your hand, look at the parameters. Tell me how it will sound in a 1 cubic foot sealed box. At 1atm of barametric pressure, along with 800 true watts of power - 70 degrees, at sea level.

Then put the driver in car, Reproduce those exact conditions - give me a t/s parameters and THD in car reading, If you can match them i will be the very first person in line to shake your hand.

Generated data has it's place...you'd be stupid to ignore it. But you'd also be stupid for following it blindly as well.

:ban:

 

Why wouldn't you be well liked?

Personally, I don't know you and aside from the one comment you made on here, have no idea what you think, feel or represent. The 1 comment you made was quite rude and frankly displayed tremendous immaturity, however that is no reason for anyone not to like you. Nor is is reason to discount what you have to say, or to delete your information.

We bring to the table here the ability to express your viewpoint, without immature thread takeovers or comments. Ask Josh Laine, I'm sure he will allude to how surprised he was at my criticizing my friends reaction when Josh did not deserve it. Also, I have let all our members know that no matter what kind of taste any forum, particularly SIN (which I assume is your home) left in their mouths, to leave it off the board. However, in return I ask you to display the same consideration for others as well.

Loyd made his own bed, and displays his maturity the best way he sees fit, but frankly I don't see any reason why you even brought up Loyd. You are not he, correct? Leave him out of it.

However, on to the post at hand... I don't care what the box program tells me. All it is is mearly a starting point, and a direction to go in with regaurds to the enclosure for the driver in question. It will tell me nothing of what the driver sounds like. There are many drivers that have differant parameters that wind up modeling quite the same. You also make mention of the install and location etc. that must be considered and you are totaly correct. A good installer can take an average unit and make it sound good. Likewise, a bad installer can take an awesome unit and destroy it's potential, just like Geo alluded to. This is true. But as Dan said:

We are able to tell alot about a unit by the numbers and reports, and bear in mind, we are not refering to a modeling program. I have heard numerous installs with a particular driver represented and been left with varying opinions about the same driver. As I stated earlier:

But please, feel free to join us in our discussions. I assure you that your opinions will not recieve any childish berating, and neither will you, provided you show everyone else the same consideration. We welcome differant viewpoints and ideas. And frankly, yours are as welcome here as mine IMHO

 

yep.. I treat people like they deserve to be treated.. I won't waste my time kissing tail of those non-deserving of my time..

I certainly lose no sleep..

so call me as you wish.. its just as subjective as how a speaker sounds..

not a thread takeover.. hoping this is the last post I'll make here..

Loyd L.

 

I know what i have done in the past...and quite frankly i do not regret it. I post what i feel like posting, if some one does not like what i say - tough the majority of what i post i have tested, Personally. This is just how I am, and how i will always be.

I know where I am liked, and i know where I am not liked as well. It takes no rocket scientist to figure that out. I post what i have tested, what i have observed and in the countless cars and hours that i have put into this 'sport' if you will. But yet people who have never had their ears on a driver, much less their hands on a driver can tell me how it will sound? I think not.

Between Loyd, Marshall, and Myself. We have smashed the 1/4 wave theory. Killed some of the 3/1 wave ratio's along with many other 'Laws' of physics.


You dont tell the Author of a book, before you have read it that it means this. When in all reality the author meant the book to mean something completely different....Never judge a book by it's cover

 

Did I miss something?
I have pretty much seen every thread here... er... :unsure:

Well, first of all, a DUMAX machine has nothing to do with response, or measuring it, so you are right there... we won't ever do that. :lol:

However, if you like, the Klippel Distortion Analyzer does use an actual music signal - and it produces the same sort of end product.

I think there's a pretty fundamental misunderstanding in what you are thinking is being measured...
Or maybe a case-example of what I said before -
Remember, specs are discrete measurements.
People lose faith in them when they try to interpret them as something they are not - that's not the spec's fault.
Scroll back, and read my example of the basketball player. B)

That's actually the reason that specs are important..
Even though you think you are arguing the opposite.

For that very same reason...
Let's say you have a system in your car, and it sounds absolutely wonderful...
So I buy one.

And I install it in my car, and it sounds absolutely horrible.
I now hate you, because you led me astray.
How did this happen?

The entire signal chain is different in your car...
Your car is possibly smaller than mine, with different acoustics...
Yours was in a different enclosure than mine...
Many factors can change.

We could have predicted my failure with that woofer, if we had looked at the specs..
Because in both my car, and yours, we've got the same woofer... it will measure the same. Both have the same properties, and they were more flattering to your install than to mine.

That IS why specs are important... they are the middle-ground, they tell you about the subwoofer on it's own - ONLY the subwoofer, and nothing else.
You can apply whatever mask over those properties you like, and determine if it will be successful or not in that application.
That IS the benefit.

Here's a good analogy for you:
The DUMAX report is like an engine dyno, for a car.
If that's not "applied enough" for you, the Klippel distortion analyzer is like a wheel dyno, for a car.

It tells you at what RPM the engine - or drivetrain as a whole - makes the most power and torque at.

It certainly doesn't tell you how fast it will go in the quarter mile.
Discrediting Dyno results as meaningless because they don't, is honestly ignorant as to their purpose.

However, the Dyno results can be used to make the car faster in the quarter mile, because they can tell you what RPM range the engine makes it's power at, to which you can apply gearing strategies, or tweak the engine to change that powerband.

This is the same thing as our spec sheet, our DUMAX report, our Klippel analysis.
It allows you to understand the strengths and weaknesses in a driver, so that you can apply it properly.

Think about this compared to our Dyno results...
If you took a 260hp V8 engine, and put it into a car... you'd expect it to be very fast, right?

Well, let's say you put it into an Excursion... and it was a turd. 0-60 in "yawn".
Would you cry
"Oh, those Dyno results are crap! Look, they are meaningless!"
No, of course not! :lol:

It wasn't the Dyno results that were flawed, it was your inability to understand the Dyno results in the context that you would be using that motor for.

Because in another application (installation), a 260 HP would make for a downright drag-car.

Is it an ego thing?
"I thought it was going to do one thing.. and it didn't. My interpretation can't be wrong, so it must be the specs. The specs must be meaningless"
I've seen little to dispel this impression, honestly.

If you understand the specs, and you have the knowledge and ability to apply what you read from them properly, your results will be confirmed in application...
You'll hear with your ears essentially exactly what you predicted.

If that's what you meant when you said "when you get the same results as you would on a Dumax machine", then that's exactly what you'll get...

...unless you are trying to claim that the DUMAX machine either doesn't measure something properly?
Or are you trying to say that something the DUMAX machine measures will change in application.. with power applied?
Because that's actually not true.
That's again, a misunderstanding.

 

After reading these threads countless times I see pretty much the same thing almost every time.

One group of people argue one thing and the other group argues another. The problem is both sides tend to bring up a grey area that neither side is truely arguing about that somewhat makes the other sides' argument irrelevent.



The specs guys do not argue that they can argue what a driver will sound like in an install. No one can tell that without having done every install possible in every car with ever different interior possible.

The 'real life' people do no argue that specs are completely useless(most at least). They simply argue that specs arent everything in an install.


When it comes down to the actual install to say specs are everything is absurd. To say specs are nothing is absurd as well. The specs will dictate how a driver will perform just as much as the vehicle and installation does. Neither will make that particular install sound perfect to all people. SQ is subjective. After all, people do buy Legacy equipment and are happy with it.

 

i saw and posted on the thread that this stemmed from on termpro...

the basic idea behind that particular thread was x vs x...and the conclusion that was proposed from kep was just preposterous to us... and he faught his end and we delivered ours too...

basically.... the driver that was in question was called "geared more for spl" which just don't hold any water at all.... don't matter who says what..the drivers design was aimed souly at sq an thats from the makers mouth himself.... you can interpret anything you want...

Granted i have limited experience with it...but it was deemed a well built , decent sub in my book....not at all geared for spl and 3 men that keep our heads in spl quickly disputed the claim as preposterous..
now....

Here is lesson number one.........
Dumax numbers often are WRONG ANYDAMN WAY...make a note of that...
xmax numbers are often squirly at best.. example number one...
TN guaged it at 29mm for the Brahma 10...even Dan W. will tell you ...impossible....but whatever......so stare at a dumax all you want...its got some good info..but its not dead sea scroll...
You'll often find , especially when you are truely in close to the manuf of woofers ...that the numbers posted by some companies are just not always what they seem...people like Dan from Adire and Scott and David from RE will post good numbers, true enough (which are easily verifiable) just look for any good argument between Dan Wiggins and Matt Overpeck on just about any forum and you'll see some good scientific bashing Fact vs Fiction ...and just ask RE or Adire and they'll show you how some other companies screw with stuff...especially xmax as of late....very easy to tell when using certain baskets and spacers that the end numbers are some times "fudged" at best and just flat out false in some cases...

This is something that we've learned to accept ... our experiences have taught us for the most part... the numbers are great!!!!!!!!!!!...IF THEY ARE CORRECT!!!!!!!!
And they can give you a good idea of how to impliment them in their natural mechanicly sound application....

I will indeed listen with my ears...and have...i use the numbers as the rope in the dark...after the enclosure is built i can pretty much tell what changes have to be made to make it sound better in the environment its in...and thats what nick and loyd mean when they say that listen with your ears and the numbers dont mean much...its because we use them for a rough estimate to get it to the enclosure...and then ALWAYS have to redevelope the enclosure for the situation its in...not that the computer was wrong....its just that the numbers don't know you have a car that likes to let 45hz out the door jams or your roof flexes at 50hz or your leather seats absorb certain freqs...these things are called variables...
It also doesn't know you gonna rear fire , or use crx style box or port up subs back or fold the flow....or guide a wave....

For instance.....
I've deficated on L715 every time i've been in the lanes...with them having more power and or more cone area to go along with that.....
Useing tempests...and less power in most cases....
which one is more geared to spl?
why did tempests win?

Here's another one...Kicker's ex master installers made absolute works of art in sq with the L7s...and EVERYBODY knows...they sound like shit.....so why did they end up sounding good in those cars....? You gonna tell me now they were geared for sq????

This is were our experience comes in....

now...i got alot of paperwork to do...imma do that and check in later....there is alot more i can say now..but honestly...i gotta do this ..tax time coming..

 

This is the argument discrediting using the measurements as a tool to help you design?

Let's put your same challenge in better terms:

Since we're talking about a subwoofer, let's set a goal.
State some desired in-car sound goals, in whatever type of enclosure that you choose to reach those sound goals (1 cu.ft. sealed? OK).
Whatever those terms may be...
Frequency response... distortion percentages by frequency... output level desired... efficiency desired... terms that apply to the speaker and it's desired output.

You will be performing this install on my car, with my amplifiers and equipment... whatever that may be.
I'll be performing this install on your car, with your amplifiers and equipment... whatever that may be.

You have free reign over whatever subwoofer to use for this application, as do I. If it's out there, it's eligable.

I'll opt to use spec sheets and measurements and my past experience to help me select a driver that best suits the target goals, enclosure design, and acoustical environment of your car.

You will opt to not use anything but your past experience to help you select a subwoofer that best suits the target goals, enclosure design, and acoustical properties of my car.

Who do you think will come closer to reaching the target goals?

If you come closer, I'll be the first to shake your hand. B)

 

That has to be by far the most mindless post i have ever seen in my life..why in the bloody hell didnt you stop typing?

I know t/s parameters very well, very familiar with them...reproduce them in car with power on it and everything you have said sir, will be valid. Spec guy's argue parameters that change in car, so how in the hell can you validly prove to me that those 'Specs' do not change in car?

Fact of the matter is they do change - and you cannot reproduce this "dumax" environment....not even the Klippel Environment.

Until then ill be waiting....and not reading this..babble...

BTW - read Marshall's post....you may learn something

 

This is the argument discrediting using the measurements as a tool to help you design?

Let's put your same challenge in better terms:

Since we're talking about a subwoofer, let's set a goal.
State some desired in-car sound goals, in whatever type of enclosure that you choose to reach those sound goals (1 cu.ft. sealed? OK).
Whatever those terms may be...
Frequency response... distortion percentages by frequency... output level desired... efficiency desired... terms that apply to the speaker and it's desired output.

You will be performing this install on my car, with my amplifiers and equipment... whatever that may be.
I'll be performing this install on your car, with your amplifiers and equipment... whatever that may be.

You have free reign over whatever subwoofer to use for this application, as do I. If it's out there, it's eligable.

I'll opt to use spec sheets and measurements and my past experience to help me select a driver that best suits the target goals, enclosure design, and acoustical environment of your car.

You will opt to not use anything but your past experience to help you select a subwoofer that best suits the target goals, enclosure design, and acoustical properties of my car.

Who do you think will come closer to reaching the target goals?

If you come closer, I'll be the first to shake your hand. B) [/b][/quote]
gimme a tape measure and ill use one of the motors that i have in the room...doesnt really matter to me

I know what a certain motor topoliges will let me do, as well as the different baskets and suspension setups that i can brew up...

'Sq' with something that has more excursion then you have ever seen in your life?

Ok...i can do it :ss:

 

Absolutely, of course this is true.
And any specs that are simply fictional can be - and often are - proven, and publicly displayed.

Saying that "some people might lie about their specs" is no reason to not use them as a tool...
Any more than saying "some people might lie to you about things" would be any reason to not believe what your college professor teaches you.

Knowing truth from fiction is a separate skill completely...
But I'm sure you know, it's often simply not that difficult!

And if you understand the specs to begin with, false claims are generally quite easy to spot. B)

And used as a tool...
That's what they are for.

No one here is claiming they are a magical oracle... any more than a mechanic would claim that he's got an impact wrench that'll give the car more horsepower when it's used to tighten it's nuts.

I'm honestly not sure what point is being made anymore... lol
Everyone seems to agree that the specs can be used to help you understand the woofer, and apply it more appropriately... a tool, if you will.

 

fugyaself - my apologies that post was supposed to be quoted to Geolemon....

 

so your gonna use specs that are wrong?

What if your working with a driver with a Fs of 135Hz and a Qt of .11 and a BL of 90tm (not that this would ever happen )

and the almighty dumax sheet is saying a Fs of 29Hz a Qt of .4 and a Bl of 21tm (rather typical)

hrm...... btw...i dont know anything about parameters...honest the name is Dumas :stupid:

 

Who's ever argued that they won't?

I see it this way...

People who advocate using specs understand them for what they are:
Measurements that are taken under a certain standard set of conditions.

They are successful, because they understand those conditions, and they understand the conditions of the application, and they have the ability to apply those specs in a meaninful way, because they understand what shift will occur in response in that applied condition, and whether that shift will result in remaining suitability for the application, or not.

On the other hand...
People who discredit the specs fail to understand them for what they are:
Measurements that are taken under a certain standard set of conditions.
They get frustrated, because they didn't understand the conditions of the application, or the shifts that would occur in response to that applied condition.
They modeled something up anechoically, and when they put that in the car, things looked different. They built kick panels,and their imaging wasn't improved. Something along those lines.

So, they return back to the forums and say:
"Oh, it's not my fault.. it wasn't me.. it's the specs that are wrong."
or
"Theory is meaningless."



Sound about right? :lol:

 

Only those that can see past the fog can do this..
and normally entails getting your hands on the sub....and having a good grasp of the parts used and the ts meanings

no...thats an excellent reason not to believe them or use their specs....what planet are you from? At the very least....take them with a grain of salt man..don't bet your life on them......

See first statement.

only if they are correct...there...i said it again...its not something you can base life on.... this whole discussion was derived from a post on termpro....in which kephart said (based on some translation of numbers) that the SI 12 was more spl geared driver.... stay with us on this geo..this is where the discussion came from..

on the contrary...this is exacly what kep was implying...and this is exactly why these points are directed in the manor they are


I really gotta go now..for real this time...LOL...

good conversation though...see ya guys tomorrow i'm sure.

 

Most often, that's not hard..

[/quote]
Layer 1:
You just trust the company provides accurate specs.
This usually isn't bad, usually the specs aren't bad.

Layer 2:
You trust that someone out there will identify someone as lying.
This usually happens, with a product that even has reasonable potential popularity.

Layer 3:
You have to spot potential "lies" yourself, based on your knowledge of specs, and your ability to spot outliers and specs that don't seem physically or design-reason likely given other specs in the sheet, or physical observation of the unit.
If you know your stuff, this isn't even terribly difficult most often.

So what filters through?
What percentage?

And how far off are the specs... if they do filter through?
And how much does that affect your final product?

If you are a novice, and don't have a "layer 3", chances are you also aren't building any projects that only leverage a spec sheet and your experience... chances are more likely that you're asking others for comments on your project, so the risk is very much minimized that way as well.
We aren't running with knives very often. :lol:

That's why I'm saying this is a bit overblown. B)

 

just explaining where the answers are coming from and why they are being presented in a certain way...

I suggest you get your panties out of a wad before i do it for you.

I thought i was being rather civil and trying to be helpful and explain my shared points of view...

So...i suggest you keep it civil as well.

like i said....its a good conversation so far...so lets keep it that way.

 

let me step in with my super-ultra-uber knowledge here...

i cant really fault kephart here, cuz he's trying to do the same thing that i do. when i look at a driver for myself, i have to pick [somewhat] from the specs, cuz of lack of direct experience...only thing is--ive learned not to reccomend based on that. really the only people who should be discussing how stuff sounds are the people who've had SIGNIFICANT experience with them.

for example, i know loyd (and some of the other guys on here) can actually FEEL a driver and know what it needs. that comes from owning/testing more equipment than ive heard in my entire life. unfortunately, we get n00bs who reccomend based on other peoples reccomendations (i am guilty of this in the past, so i cant say much).

*edit* im not calling anyone in this conversation a n00b

eric

 

Most often, that's not hard..
[/b][/quote]
it is for somebody without the first clue of what a TS param is...and they think the first guy that steps up to answer a question, that has a vague idea of what they mean is a SUPER GURU.... if that SUPER GURU has no idea of what he talks of....then that poor guy is lead astray...

and btw...you must do sq....LOL