Battery, batteries, and those damn wookies

Wow... I think there is some more confusion around here... When you say deep cycle will not work for starting the car, you must be thinking about true deep cycle batteries (like in solar energy systems)... The automotive and audio dry cell or gel batteries are not true deep cycle batteries... they are actually a compromise between the starting and deep cycling type and they actually charge up much faster than regular flooded automotive starting batteries and do it many more times over... There is no reason why you cannot use these batteries for starting function, providing you get one with enough CCA rating and enough reserve (this is for these extra loud musical moments, LOL...).... I usually agree with everything you preach on the forums but this time I really have to disagree... The main common characteristic these SO CALLED deep cycle batteries have with a true deep cycle type is the way discharge (very steady until they drop dead...) but they charge up very quickly... The only thing I would be concerned with when picking a battery would be its CCA, reserve time (especially when you let the car sit) and maximum discharge rating. I thing these batteries are great because when you disconnect it it will maintain the rated voltage for very long time (very low internal resistance)... Now try this with regular battery... it will be dead after a few weeks... So... there is no reason why you cannot use a yellow top as a main battery providing you do not need more CCA (yellow top is rated at about 550, my car need at least 600...)... The only reason why you would use red top is if you need more CCA (950 CCA rating...)

 

Instead of wasting your money on an isolator, get 2 batteries with very close and very low internal resistance (for the price of a decent isolator and regular battery you can buy 2 good dry cell batteries)... The isolator will decrease the efficiency of your charging system, costs money and has a limited life span... IMHO... B)

 

Instead of wasting your money on an isolator, get 2 batteries with very close and very low internal resistance (for the price of a decent isolator and regular battery you can buy 2 good dry cell batteries)... The isolator will decrease the efficiency of your charging system, costs money and has a limited life span... IMHO... B)[/b][/quote]
See I have heard that too. I knew if the batters were the same you didnt HAVE to have an isolator. And now that Im learning more and more about the batteries I think Im going to do an isolator. But Im not sure of whats the best way to go with the batteries. Reading what you said makes sense if they arent true deep cycle but then if they are then it makes sense what others say. So basically I have to do more research on them and find if it would be more beneficial to have a red and yellow top or just two yellow tops. I mean i know peepl who have the yellow tops to start their car and they work fine but if what sandt quoted is true then that makes sense and they arent as benfical used that way.

But anyone who can shine any light on this please do... :blink:

 

See I have heard that too. I knew if the batters were the same you didnt HAVE to have an isolator. And now that Im learning more and more about the batteries I think Im going to do an isolator. But Im not sure of whats the best way to go with the batteries. Reading what you said makes sense if they arent true deep cycle but then if they are then it makes sense what others say. So basically I have to do more research on them and find if it would be more beneficial to have a red and yellow top or just two yellow tops. I mean i know peepl who have the yellow tops to start their car and they work fine but if what sandt quoted is true then that makes sense and they arent as benfical used that way.

But anyone who can shine any light on this please do... :blink:[/b][/quote]
k... one more time... THESE ARE NOT TRUE DEEP CYCLE BATTERIES!!! if you do not believe me, do some search on the web about what true deep cycle battery is and how it works... Do you think that there would be a CCA rating on yellow top if it was not ok to start a car with it? LOL... I think you better read up on the subject instead of taking other people's word on it...

 

Well peter, everyone is entitled to their opinion... I am pleased a well versed member such as yourself usually agrees with me, but it just never goes that way all the time...

I know of many forum members who have heard the same thing I have stated above from the HO Alt companies they buy from, their mechanics, and their personal isuues which I have helped resolve over the time I have spent on these forums helping others. Also, not only are my statements read from a book, but things I have observed while working with numerous vehicles using deep cycle batteries. I do this for a living, and used to work on more vehicles with deep cycles than you could imagine (usually several a day). Now I see less big trucks and motorhomes (thank God ) so it is not as much a part of my daily life, but it was just 3 years ago it encompassed almost ALL of my work.

I have posted numerous observations in the past, but I wouldn't even begin to know where to look for these anymore. I have also had quite a few at CAF I had helped previously jump in and speak up for my observations after helping them out of their situation, and they too were in doubt... at first. I have yet to leave an issue unresolved when it comes to selection of a starter battery, if they listened to me .

If you want to try a deep cycle, cool... go ahead. But be sure to get a jump box or a charger... you will need it.

 

yes as I said I do have to do more research on it and I dont know a whole lot about batteries and te electrical system, which is why Im asking you guys, so I know where to start my research. Im not really taking anybodys word on it YET I'm just asking questions to get my facts strait. And to be honest with you I dont know what

are, its not that I dont believe you....

Also I know its ok to start a car as i have stated my friend runs one and hast had any problems with it...im just trying to find out which would be more beneficial something like a red and a yellow top or two yellow tops....but trust me I will do a lot more research on this before its time to buy like I do on everything else.

 

well that may be True, but I have a "lower" brand of Johnson Batterts and it works damn good,

I am really surpised how long it has lasted, I bought it when my Factory Batter Gave out, and I had very little Money, but it has taken a beating now for a long time......

 

Heh..
Me too!

Have to be careful when you say "Hey, Chris" around here apparently!

 

I want to clarify for everyone at a very high, easy to understand level:

Car audio systems aren't anything close to being a "constant, high current draw" on your electrical system.
In fact, the average draw from even high powered car audio systems is generally well within the limits of your alternator's overhead.

The fact that your lights dim when the bass hits illustrates that in fact what is happening is that your alternator does have overhead to provide current, until the bass hits loudly.. generally only for a moment, then your lights are back to full strength until the next bass hit.

What this means is that your amplifier is calling upon your electrical system to provide needed current instantaniously so that it can do what it is being called upon to do... the key word being "instantanious".

Your battery is about 12.5 volts at full charge.
Your alternator outputs 14.4 volts (higher so that it charges the battery).

When all is well, the alternator can happily provide enough current to satisfy everything in your car, plus charge the battery.
When more current is demanded than the alternator can provide however, the voltage level drops to the level of the battery, at which point the battery supplies the remaining current that the alternator couldn't.
It is this drop from 14.4 volts to 12.5 volts that you are observing when your lights dim (since lights are less bright on 12.5 volts than they are on 14.4 volts, right?)
If things are really bad, you could be discharging your battery faster than it can recharge between bass hits...
Which means maybe the dimming is really going from 14.4 down to 12 volts.. from 14.4 down to 11.5 volts.. etc!

So, do you want a slow-responding battery, or a fast discharge, fast charge battery in this application?

That's the point...

a "Deep cycle" battery might be the perceived solution from someone who has repeatedly run their system at levels that has dropped their battery voltage to low levels, eventually damaging their standard battery's ability to fully recharge again...
But the problem in that case really wasn't that the "battery was too wimpy to survive", the problem was that the electrical system couldn't keep up.
For sure, a deep cycle battery would have survived through more of these discharge situations.
But at the same time, since it can't charge as fast, it would have also created more of these low-discharge situations, since it would have been even less capable of catching up on charging in between bass hits.
Also, the amplifier will be less happy, and possibly your transient response will even suffer, since this type of battery can't provide the current as quickly.

My answer would be to use a fast battery in all cases, even those where it is being added as a second battery...
My thinking is, especially in those cases, you ideally want that thing behaving more like a capacitor than a battery - the ability to provide instantanious current, and then recharge nearly that instantaniously as well.
And of course, the limitation with that sort of battery is that you should ensure that you aren't discharging it too bad...
Maybe an inexpensive voltmeter mounted somwhere? Could be a slick addition to your gauge cluster....

If you find that you are constantly having to turn it down to let your battery recharge back up to safe (for it) voltage levels, it's either time to visit the ear doctor, or a shop that can upgrade your alternator...(and there's a whole bag of worms with that one.. beginning with "what's my idle current?")

 

Buffalo Chris with the backup!!!!

 

Damn you peepl

OK well I do plan on upgrading my alt. with one that puts out descent current at idle so I may have to fork over the money to get and Ohio generator or something. So basically I want to know which would be the best batteries (pair) to use in this case. Should I use an isolator?

And GEO I agree with you how your talking about the alt. can handle the stereo until a bass note (in most cases) but also a lot of that depends on the current draw of the amps and what kinda current they draw on average. I just want to avoid having my stereo shut off due to lack of voltage. I mean hell with one 13w7 and about 1200 watts(full power aprox) I didnt even have the volume up near all the way and the amp kept shutting off and it would even shut off when I was reving the engine to about 2000+ RPMs.

So is it even worth it to have a second battery if you get a good alt. that does descent power at idle and lets say is about 200 amps but your max current draw is aprox. 350+ amps. I know I most likely wont pull that but there is a chance I may pending on how the amps behave. You dont have to be a full power inorder to have amps pull max power. correct?

LOL...dunno if a whoel lot of that made any sence...kinda jumped around on several topics there but oh well...

 

Yes, you want a second battery... The RESERVE capacity of the battery will help considerably, plus it will help in those idle situations where a high output alternator is typically not working very well .

 

Ok I thought so.

So whats the best combination (pair) of batteries to use? yellow tops, red and a yello top? some other brand? Use an isolator?

 

I use a true isolator and dual Gel Cells, AC Delco Platinum Professional. Quite similar to the Red Tops. That is my suggestion.

 

so use those both the same kind for the stereo and to start the car?

If I were to use Optimas would I want to use a red and a yellow or both yellows?

 

2 reds will work great Chris. I like the thought of matching batteries under the hood, just makes for a better looking install, like nothing was cheated. Plus you can save a few pennies.

 

Kindof...

It would take a MONSTER system to AVERAGE enough current draw to make for that low voltage situation.

Well, it would either take a monster system, or one that is trying to suck it's electricity through a coffee-stirrer of a straw when it should have a garden hose sized pipeline...

Current definitely gets burned up as heat through the wire's resistance, which is more significant, the more current you pull through it.
The end result? LESS VOLTAGE at the amp, since there is a voltage drop! Ick...

Check out this complete kit at speakerhole:
http://www.speakerhole.com/product.cfm?ProductID=1008
Amazing what that kit comes with...
I've installed it, and even if you don't use the RCA cables, it's an amazing price including the 1/0 gauge fuseholder and ANL 250 amp fuse, distribution block for the back, machined ring terminals, etc..
For that price, I'd even consider getting two.. twin runs of 1/0 gauge would take wiring right out as a factor for voltage drop, wouldn't it?

Seriously, wiring can make a big difference when you are pushing the envelope with your supply current/voltage...
I'd upgrade my wiring first, before anything else..
A second battery with insufficient wire won't help a damn thing...

 

Well I think I got wire taken care of ( http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/hazard269/lst?..../Wiring&.view=t )

So I just wanna make sure I get the batteries right along with the alt. I do not plan to upgrade the batteries and the alt. until I have everything in and find out what needs to be upgrading but I am counting on an added batter and a good HO alt. that does descent current at idle.

 

Ok... took me a while to respond but I think you should treat this delay as another sign of respect (in other words, I do not want to argue for the sake of argument but rather take my time and shoot back with a hopefully well thought out reply... LOL...)

Anyway... there is a vast number of battery knowledge on the web but let me concentrate on just a few:

About distinguishing between true deep cycle batteries and hybrids

" Starting (sometimes called SLI, for starting, lighting, ignition) batteries are commonly used to start and run engines. Engine starters need a very large starting current for a very short time. Starting batteries have a large number of thin plates for maximum surface area. The plates are composed of a Lead "sponge", similar in appearance to a very fine foam sponge. This gives a very large surface area, but if deep cycled, this sponge will quickly be consumed and fall to the bottom of the cells. Automotive batteries will generally fail after 30-150 deep cycles if deep cycled, while they may last for thousands of cycles in normal starting use (2-5% discharge).

Deep cycle batteries are designed to be discharged down as much as 80% time after time, and have much thicker plates. The major difference between a true deep cycle battery and others is that the plates are SOLID Lead plates - not sponge. Unfortunately, it is often impossible to tell what you are really buying in some of the discount stores or places that specialize in automotive batteries. The popular golf cart battery is generally a "semi" deep cycle - better than any starting battery, better than most marine, but not as good as a true deep cycle solid Lead plate, such the L-16 or industrial type. However, because the golf cart (T-105, US-2200, GC-4 etc) batteries are so common, they are usually quite economical for small to medium systems.

Many (most?) Marine batteries are usually actually a "hybrid", and fall between the starting and deep-cycle batteries, while a few (Rolls-Surrette and Concorde, for example) are true deep cycle. In the hybrid, the plates may be composed of Lead sponge, but it is coarser and heavier than that used in starting batteries. It is often hard to tell what you are getting in a "marine" battery, but most are a hybrid. "Hybrid" types should not be discharged more than 50%. Starting batteries are usually rated at "CCA", or cold cranking amps, or "MCA", Marine cranking amps - the same as "CA". Any battery with the capacity shown in CA or MCA may not be a true deep-cycle battery. It is sometimes hard to tell, as the terms marine and deep cycle are sometimes overused. CA and MCA ratings are at 32 degrees F, while CCA is at zero degree F. Unfortunately, the only positive way to tell with some batteries is to buy one and cut it open - not much of an option. "

Now, on to using deep cycle and hybrid batteries to start a car...

"There is generally no problem with this, providing that allowance is made for the lower cranking amps compared to a similar size starting battery. As a general rule, if you are going to use a true deep cycle battery (such as the Concorde) also as a starting battery, it should be oversized about 20% compared to the existing or recommended starting battery group size to get the same cranking amps. That is about the same as replacing a group 24 with a group 31. With modern engines with fuel injection and electronic ignition, it generally takes much less battery power to crank and start them, so raw cranking amps is less important than it used to be. On the other hand, many cars, boats, and RV's are more heavily loaded with power sucking "appliances", such as megawatt stereo systems etc. that are more suited for deep cycle batteries. We have been using the Concorde SunExtender AGM batteries in most of our vehicles for some time now with no problems."

Now, a little about the so called deep cycle automotive AGP type (Optima and others...)
"AGM, or Absorbed Glass Mat Batteries
A newer type of sealed battery uses "Absorbed Glass Mats", or AGM between the plates. This is a very fine fiber Boron-Silicate glass mat. These type of batteries have all the advantages of gelled, but can take much more abuse. We sell the Concorde (and Lifeline, made by Concorde) AGM batteries. These are also called "starved electrolyte", as the mat is about 95% saturated rather than fully soaked. That also means that they will not leak acid even if broken.

AGM batteries have several advantages over both gelled and flooded, at about the same cost as gelled:
Since all the electrolyte (acid) is contained in the glass mats, they cannot spill, even if broken. This also means that since they are non-hazardous, the shipping costs are lower. In addition, since there is no liquid to freeze and expand, they are practically immune from freezing damage.

Nearly all AGM batteries are "recombinant" - what that means is that the Oxygen and Hydrogen recombine INSIDE the battery. These use gas phase transfer of oxygen to the negative plates to recombine them back into water while charging and prevent the loss of water through electrolysis. The recombining is typically 99+% efficient, so almost no water is lost.

The charging voltages are the same as for any standard battery - no need for any special adjustments or problems with incompatible chargers or charge controls. And, since the internal resistance is extremely low, there is almost no heating of the battery even under heavy charge and discharge currents. The Concorde (and most AGM) batteries have no charge or discharge current limits.

AGM's have a very low self-discharge - from 1% to 3% per month is usual. This means that they can sit in storage for much longer periods without charging than standard batteries. The Concorde batteries can be almost fully recharged (95% or better) even after 30 days of being totally discharged.

AGM's do not have any liquid to spill, and even under severe overcharge conditions hydrogen emission is far below the 4% max specified for aircraft and enclosed spaces. The plates in AGM's are tightly packed and rigidly mounted, and will withstand shock and vibration better than any standard battery."

here is the link to the complete info:
http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

and here is another link explaining this issue...
http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/dcfaq.htm

Finally, straight from Optima web page:
About using an isolator

"If you are using an OPTIMA and a conventional battery, your system must charge each battery independently. Remember, some isolators cause a voltage drop, make sure your charging voltage AT THE BATTERY is sufficient. Continued undercharging of a battery will lead to premature failure and a drop in capacity."

Please note that isolator IS NOT NECESSARY when using two batteries of same type...

Lastly, about using yellow top to start a car...

To provide the customer the best OPTIMA solution, it is, necessary to consider both the application and the charging system before recommending the correct OPTIMA. For example, if your customer has a Ford Expedition with an after-market alarm system, which OPTIMA would you recommend? If the customer drives the car every day, the Red Top would be the correct choice, since the amperage drain will be nominal and the battery would be recharged on a daily basis. However, if the customer stores the vehicle for a long period of time with the alarm system engaged, you should recommend the OPTIMA Yellow Top, since the amperage drain over several weeks would damage a Red Top and reduce its life.

To sum it up, EITHER type of Optima would do fine but you could not use the yellow top alone in applications when the CCA requirements are higher than the yellow top CCA rating... So if you have a car that requires more than 550 CCA and it sits for long time with an alarm and clock on, you would have to use BOTH yellow and red top... If your car requires high CCA but you drive it often, you can just use red... If your car sits and has low CCA requirement, you will be fine with just single yellow top... Or you can go to other brands which exceed the Optima specs...