What's Your Reference?

Nate (luvdabass) and I drove to a high-end shop way out in Rochester, NY today, as he was shopping for a stereo speaker set today.
I had the chance to audition some speaker that I've always wanted to hear (as they use very unique technology), and had the chance to visit their high end room for an audition of about $60,000 worth of speakers, amplifiers, and source... and it was just a stereo system, bear in mind.

We spent about 3 hours in the shop, just auditioning. B)

We started with what Nate was looking for...
Went to a local shop in my neighborhood, and auditioned some PSB Image 4T speakers against some Paradigm Monitor 7's, which were priced identically (and affordibly - $600/pair). Despite all the critical acclaim for the PSB's, we both thought they lacked an element of realism... almost as if there were a muffling barrier between us and the speakers... Closing your eyes did not create the illusion of being at a live performance, although there was plenty of fine detail.
The Paradigms were excellent in this price range, they did have nice realism, good balance, and just sounded more "live", more convincing.

And then we headed to Rochester, to visit a place called "The Sound Concept".
2 hours of driving.

Our first impression was that this was one well-stocked, but understaffed shop.
The only salesperson in the shop was talking to a newbie husband who hadn't a clue what he wanted, and cared more about making sure he brought something home that his wife would like, he didn't even know if he wanted a stereo or home theater setup. And we waited for a good 20 minutes before we got any attention, browsing around the speaker room.

When the salesman finally came by, I told him I was interested in listening to the electrostats and magneplanars, but Nate was the priority, shopping for his more conventional speakers.
We passed on the opportunity to listen to the PSB Image 4T's again, opting to hear the Focal JMlabs Chorus 716S instead. It really was wonderfully detailed, and smooth, with a response that extended down well beyond where it needed to for real music (no rap auditioning here... Nora Jones was the most listened to of all of them, good detail, vocals, piano, acoustic guitar, rim shots that all had subtleties on track 2 ). It was definitely more in the same league as the Paradigm than the PSB, but we felt (although it had been 2 hours earlier) that the Focals had more detail, and much more realism than the Paradigms.
We also found out that they had one of last year's version with a slight nick in the backside (and I mean slight), for $200 cheaper.. bringing them to the same price point as the Focal's.
Listening to them also, I felt there were differences between last year and this year's versions. Most notably, this year's version was much more constraining in terms of vertical dispersion (when you stood up, everything changed in tone!), while last years was much more forgiving. However, last year's seemed to have the slightest peak in the upper midbass, that corresponded unfortunately with a note in Nora Jones voice where she was really hitting it, causing a little flinching, a bit too bright. Subtle, but there.

Then, I got to listen to my choices...
I first got to audition the Magnapan MG 1.6 magneplanar speakers, just as a small group of older, local enthusiasts came in, who were truly excited that I had chosen to listen to the Magnepans.
"Wait until you hear those.. I have those" said one. "And Bobby over there has the 3.6's, with the full length ribbon tweeter in them. I've sold mine three times, tried others, and have come back to them three times now."
Encouraging words. B)
They really were remarkable, it was astonishing how much full-range sound could come from a large panel that was under 1" in thickness. It's ability to play low frequencies seemed to defy physics (there's no real excursion capability, per se.. just massive surface area!), as did it's ability to produce finely detailed sound.
Upon closer inspection, it appears the panel actualy is divided into two sections... one larger section representing the full/midrange section, with a narrower band extending the entire height down one side of each representing a pseudo-tweeter (the enthusiast noted to me they actually were biampable, they were truly separate sections despite them looking like minor variations across the panel).
The detail and realism they provided was remarkable.
They were much, much more immune to vertical or horizontal dispersion issues, although they were directional.
Even still, they honestly gave up just a hair to the Focal JMlabs Chorus 716S's, in terms of detail... the fingers sliding on the strings of the acoustic guitar was slightly more subdued than with the Focals, but I thought them superior in all other respects, including "cool factor". B)
For $1700, they would have come home with me over the $800 Focals if I were shopping.

Next, I got to hear honestly my favorite of the day - the Martin Logan Clarity electrostatic speaker set, which was interesting in that it housed an 8" bass driver (rear ported) in it's base, and an up-firing 1" dome tweeter located behind the high-rising electrostatic panel - an ambiance-enhancement device.
The most astonishing aspect of this $2700 set of speakers wasn't even it's pure detail (which it most certainly had), it's lifelike reproduction (it was beautiful), it's abilities of range (it truly was a stand-alone solution), but rather it's unbelievable off-axis response, and it's ability to truly, honestly "fill the room with sound"... and I mean honestly, for the first time in my life, I have a new definition for what this means.
I was initially sitting in front of this woofer, and I loved it's sound.
Then I was curious to see if the vertical disperson would be an issue... so I stood up. Nothing, beautiful.
Then, I thought.. hey, how about the off-axis response (I almost never just sit in one place listening)? So I started to walk around. And then I started to become shocked. I walked nearer to them. Away from them. To the left. To the right. I stuck my head around them. Only when I got within inches of them, and stuck my head around them, did the tonality really change.
I mean seriously "holy shit" here.
That, coupled with the detail, has me desiring, and desiring hard.
$2700 ain't bad, people.
Although, I'm a fan of the Magnepans for $1700 also...

Finally...
I auditioned some of the flagship Focal JMlabs Utopia Alto BE ultra high end speakers(to the tune of $17,000/pair), powered by some exotic
Nagra VPA matched monoblock tube amps (to the tune of around $18,000/pair), they were sitting next to a pair of $20,000 Mark Levinson amps that were monsterous... matched monoblock amps that weighed about 200 pounds per each.

The source unit for the whole rig, btw, was some $25,000 affair... a separate CD transport unit, that had one device to process the digital output prior to sending it to the D/A... three separate devices, capable of CD, SACD, and DVD-A.

At any rate, all I can say is... I know I was listening to tubes.

The Focals were beautiful, simple, not really over the top. Simple, single tweet, single mid, single bass driver, and obvious care taken to match them, and match them well. Transparent, beautiful. You'd expect nothing less, for $17,000. :blink:
The tube amps... very interesting.
They definitely colored the sound - yet stayed out of the way. Definitely not bad, not bad at all. Very... listenable, softening, maybe? But not robbing the detail. Sort of more like the effect of softening a photograph, making you fall even more in love with the photograh than the unsoftened portrait. That's the best analogy I think I can make.

The guys with the Magnepans from earlier swore by the tubes.
I'm torn. They were enjoyable, and that's what music is all about.
Realistic sounding?
Well, what concert have YOU been to, where the amplification/sound engineer/loudspeakers haven't colored the sound in some way?
The argument is tough in those terms. They were still realistic.
But, you'd expect nothing less, for $18,000. :blink:


The real winners today, IMO, were the $2700 Martin Logans, followed very closely by the $1700 Magnepans (I wish I could have heard the $4500 3.6 Magnepans).

All in all, a fun day. B)

Oh....
And Nate bought the $600 Focal Chorus's.. last year's model. :yes:

 

Hey, if I can drive 2 hours to Rochester, NY, I can drive 2 hours to Toronto, Ont, right?
I'd love to give them an audition, and I'm sure Nate (luvdabass) would be down for it too. B)

...but you know me, I'm always drawn to the more unique technologies.
I'd select with my ears, of course... but sound quality being equal, I'm sure I'd come home with an electrostat or magneplanar even if there was a $1000 price difference over the more traditional stuff...

Now... who was that again who made the plasma tweeter that was commercially available, because the flame was fed helium to stop it from producing ozone... :lol:
That would complement a system who's bottom octave was supported by a Cyclone...

 

I honestly didn't hear that a bit.
But note, I heard the Martin Logan Clarity version.
Take a look at it. It's one of the ones that has what they are calling "NAC" (Natural Ambiance Clarification), and usually I guffaw bigtime at TLA's and gimmicks...
But I'm telling you, as I moved around the room, the sound didn't change. Remarkable.

My point with that though, is that it's simply a 1" dome tweeter, upfiring, located behind the panel.
If the ML's start to roll off naturally above 2Khz or 3Khz, that could be perceived as peaky around there... the tweeter certainly is contributing to the sound above that point.

Possibly the ML's you heard didn't have this system, as most of the ML's don't have this "NAC" feature (including their higher end models).
Might be worth giving a listen to, if you've got a dealer near you!
Ask to audition the Clarity. B)

I don't know who has Magnepans on this forum..
I'd love to hear their comments on the 3.6's though...
Like I said, I thought the 3.1's gave up just a bit in terms of detail to the nicely detailed Focal's I auditioned just before them, so I'm guessing I would appreciate the full-length true ribbon tweeter that is built into the 3.6's. B)
But... the 3.1's were still nice in detail, I'm not sure the ribbon tweet would justify the price jump from $1700 for the 3.1's up to $4500 for the 3.6's. :blink:

 

No idea at all...
But give me the link! I want to check them out! B)

The electrostats are also very thin... as are the magneplanars, they are only a bit thicker than electrostats...

Electrostats require a step-up transformer... do these require anything like that?

Another thought... maybe these are piezo sheets?
I'd definitely like to check them out, if you have a link.

 

That is impressive...
But IMO (or rather - knowing ME...) for a conventional-driver type of cabinet, I'd rather spend the $100-$300 that it generally costs to purchase the actual same raw drivers that are used in some of these exotic cabinets, build my own cabinet, braced, lined, and stuffed as these are...
And take a crack at building my own crossovers, even. Have fun experimenting with the crossover designs.
The thousands of dollars saved would certainly afford enough in the budget to build many crossovers... B)
And, when you found the right combination, you've got much more pride in the cabinets, it's more impressive to say "I built those" than "I wrote a check for those".

With the more unique technologies - the magneplanars, the electrostats - I actually wouldn't have those same feelings.
The technology is more unique, there's no such thing as "buying the raw drivers), and even at that, the alignments (such as the Clarity) were unique enough that you'd mostly end up wishing to replicate them exactly.

Although believe me, I think it would be cool to build your own electrostat (that's certainly doable) from scratch, or something like a set of plasma tweeters, things like that.

But if I were truly seeking a "reference" setup, I'd be less likely to find building my own electrostat to be the means to that end compared to purchasing a set of Martin Logans.
However, with conventional drivers, I'd be much more tempted to purchase the reference drivers, and pursue the cabinet/crossover creation myself.

That does look like one fine cutaway...
But consider the cutaway of a Honda Accord, and compare, for sake of value.

 

With a limited budget, you might be surprised what raw drivers you can purchase, drivers that come in these $10,000, $20,000, even $100,000 high end systems that only cost about $100, even $50 or even $20 each...

Check out sites like www.speakercity.com, www.madisound.com, www.zalytron.com, even www.partsexpress.com, and there's tons of others. Raw drivers, raw crossover components, all there for the "from scratch" whims of the high-end DIY'er. B)


I don't live anywhere near Mass... I'm in Buffalo, it's a 10 hour drive to NYC, I'm sure comparable to Mass... a little longer even.

 

btw, here's a visual of one Martin Logan "Clarity" (sold in pairs, obviously):

You can see the upfiring NAC tweeter on top of the bass cabinet, behind the curved electrostatic panel.
Also, the grey cloth underneath the electrostatic panel is a grille, for the 8" bass driver in the cabinet, which is ported out the rear.

Here's some commentary from the 2002 Cedia expo:

The off-axis listenability is worded far too casually in this description. B)
Hey, if $2700 is the MSRP, maybe there's room for negotiation. :yes: