We're Too Cool To Discuss Current Events Here...

i agree with you fully....i am still giving RE the benifit of the doubt....the way i see it...this blew up real fast(actually some knew it was about to blow, they just didn't know when...and this wasn't a coincidence)...RE was caught off guard, and Scott(oynx) was ready to roll(again...this wasn't a surprise in the least)....when threatened with legal action and the NDA....RE had no choice but to immediatly post "we used defective parts in our SE and HC line"....i would imagine(and hope) that RE is in the process of finding a legal way of explaining....this stuff has been in the making for a few months....

 

Interesting. Honestly, I doubt it will effect the consumers at all. After all, I rarely see any QC threads about RE drivers on the boards. So I'm guessing that although Onyx rejected the units, they probably weren't bad.

And as for the logo issues, that is between Onyx and Destijl. Destijl made several public apologies for it, so I don't see why the public should look bad upon them. Whether Destijl meant to take the logo off or not, we can't say. But honestly, having been glued under the black disk the chances are very slim of anyone finding out. And the consumer should actually be happy because machining off the logo, or throwing out the part may have caused an increase in the price of the driver.

So honestly, what harm has been done? Do you think that Onyx will be effected negatively from this? I can't see how. So I think they should accept the apology and let be.

 

That is because the RE/Destijl clan is quite to combat them with personal attacks and other comments

Well one the "apologizes" are laughable at best, and do not say anything to their customers, which hvae been hurt by this as well, weather directly or indirectly

If they did not, they would have been in (and arein) breach of the contract they had with oynx

Of it could be that all cost were figured in for NEW cost, and the priced the driver accourdingly, then they had the option to "cut courners and costs" by using the old Oynx parts, but they did nto lower the price so that could make more $$$$$

Yes Oynx will be effective negitivly by this,

they all ready has


Not Scott from Onyx has had to spend hs weekend on damage control, and probally most of this week doing the same, instead of running his business

plus, Brand Recognition is EVERYTHING in business, now his name is tarished and affilated with Destijl, which they are not, they left for QC reasons like ALOT of others

 

I just want to Add that I am Sure Dan is being prefectly honest with you in his statments about Destijl but at the same time, i feel Adire is probally the most directly tied to Destijl than any of their other clients, if they even have that many left, being as such Destijl wants to keep them happier than the rest, so they dont pull out either....


Combin that with Adire XBL2, which I have heard 2 stories on that, one being Destijl lic it from Adire, and the other being Destijl helped develop it and are co-owners of the technology
Either/or would make Destijl and Adire a vastly more linked customer/Buildhouse link than any other, being Destijl uses the XBL2 in their RE barned products...


Just some more food for thought

 

Actually Chris, we bagan discussing this in another thread

My feelings are quite simply, who cares? RE products are not displaying any real issues in customer dissatisfaction. So while the parts may have been deemed "defective", we don't know why they have been deemed defective. Was it a measurement issue? If so, who cares if the measurement fit within the platform of some RE woofers? was it cosmetic? Who cares? If it can be covered up with black paint and a dish, it doesn't matter... The actual effect of the "defective" is obviously of no real concern to the customer.

But Mike is right, The failure to meet the contractural obligation could be devastating, and does raise moral and ethical questions.

 

Sorry about cutting it all short, but ... sometimes when we are at work, we actually have to work . Who ever comes up with these ideas?

In responce to the first point, Chris...

Obviously he can't, or we wouldn't be discussing this situation. However, I am willing to bet that we may be seeing a slight shift in employment there. The result of this can be, if Scott Massengil chooses to take action, obviously very damaging both Financially, and through reputation.

If you hire someone, and say... hey your job is ***, you expect someone to do it. However, sometimes we take for granted that said employee will handle the task in the appropriate manner. Maybe that employee has worked hard and proven that they deserve this faith. But that does not eliminate the fact that every employee, and I mean every one, needs to be checked in on sometime, to assure that they do not feel omnipotent in the scheme of your buisness. I mean, what does that employee put at risk? Jobs can be found, but once a buisness is lost the financial results are typically catastophic for the owner.

So, who's job is it? If I look at the importance and gravity of what can be lost for each individual, I see the owner as the be-all-end-all in this situation.

Here is where Scott M. displays his personal belief in what I stated above, further reassuring my stance on this: He personally inspects the components before they are assembled. Wanna know why? He is fully aware of what he stands to lose, opposed to an employee hired for such a task .

I think I addressed all the rest in my previous post, but I did want to make mention of what I see as answers to the other question, and the bigger question for you personally Chris being that you are co-owner of your own buisness.

 

hehe, my fault

If I were a RE customer I would, I would care Greatly, I dont care if it was a Tolerance problem, or a Cosmetic Problem, it shows they are willing to cut corners, then I ask "what other corners did they cut?"....

Right, and more so than just in oynx's behalf, but more along the lines of what I posted before, if they will do this, what else have they done, or are doing that no ones has caught them at yet????????????????

 

Well here are some of my thoughts guys.

First, I think that this only does good things for Onyx because it shows how important QC is to them. They wouldn't use motoers that other companies are willing to use. On the other hand, I think this looks really bad for RE in a number of ways. They use motors that are deemed defective and they don't follow through with their contracts. Those combined with other major QC problems they have had with companies like ED I doubt I'll be buying a Destijl product confidently. The fact that there is rust behind the black cover up piece is a little disturbing also. I'd be ticked it the motor on any of my new drivers was rusted. Regardless of performance I would feel like I was lied to or that RE wasn't honest with me.

Even though I think they Destijl has superior technology, I doubt both their ethical standpoint and their QC.

This problem as made me think about how much I don't know. I wonder how many other parts of the RE line are "leftovers". If this has happened once I doubt it is an isolated event. Does RE design their drivers around the cheapest parts they can get? Doesn't mean they won't perform well. This incident just leaves me with a lot of doubts towards RE.

Ah a place where it is safe to talk about Adire :yes:

Personally, I wish that Adire had no affiliation with Destijl. Seeing Destijl QC be terrible and talking with Ben Milne about many of his problems as he was going through them with Destijl sickened me. I like Adire a lot and I respect all the products they design, but as of now I wish they had a different buildhouse for their bigger drivers. Everything through Eminence would be nice . Thus far I have only bought Eminence drivers through them.

From what I understand Destijl has no claim to be co-owners of the technology.
http://www.adireaudio.com/news/xbl_licensee.htm

My .02 :blink:

 

There's only one story - Dr. David Hyre and myself invented and patented XBL2, and all split-gap variants. Destijl (among several others) is a licensee of the technology. If you have questions about XBL2, rather than go by rumors, just ask.

As far as QC goes, Destijl is considerably better than many other build houses I've worked with in the past, and is VERY competitive with many others. Are they up to Eminence standards? IMHO, not yet. Of course, no one in the industry is near Eminence in terms of build quality and consistency. Even some other vaunted build houses for subs...

Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio

 

There's only one story - Dr. David Hyre and myself invented and patented XBL2, and all split-gap variants. Destijl (among several others) is a licensee of the technology. If you have questions about XBL2, rather than go by rumors, just ask.

As far as QC goes, Destijl is considerably better than many other build houses I've worked with in the past, and is VERY competitive with many others. Are they up to Eminence standards? IMHO, not yet. Of course, no one in the industry is near Eminence in terms of build quality and consistency. Even some other vaunted build houses for subs...

Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio [/b][/quote]
well that Clears up one point


So why dont you have Eminence build all of them, is because they dont have the tooling to do it, or they cost to much, or more of a personal preferance thing?

and how do you think Destijl compairs to TC Sounds?

 

Eminence is a much larger company that deals with many more and much larger customers. The smaller business aspect of Destijl probably caters to Adire a little better creating more flexibility and a more timely adjustment to their needs. This means that they can get new and innovative technology they design out on the market faster.

 

i just wanted to clarify this...as i hastely removed the back plate and checked it out right before i had to leave for work...where they attempted to grind off the 'ynx'...they burnt the metal with the grinder...from a quick glance it looks rusted ...but under closer examination...it is not....the trademark 'O' dtill exsists around the pole vent...and imo...if they were to grind this off...it would effect the performance of the driver...hence where the back plates came from

do i feel violated?...yes i do...but i do not have any performance issues with the driver itself...therefore i do not think RE owes me any kind of refund because it does seem that all of the '03 drivers are based on this motor

i feel i am owed an explination and hope that RE will eventially be able to provide it

 

Eminence builds a lot of other drivers for us, but because of the current limitations of their system, Brahmas would be prohibitively expensive. Eminence produces literally tens of thousands of drivers a day - what would be a good year for most other build houses rolls out of Eminence in a single 24 hour period. Full customization, or small (below 500 unit) runs aren't really an affordable option right now, because of their ability to do massive production. If Eminence doesn't stock the parts you need, they are very loathe to do so. Of course, when you have a few thousand parts to start with, the variety and combinations you can come up with aren't really limited...

As far as TC Sounds goes, we've talked with them in the past, and probably will talk with them again in the future. However, NO build house is perfect, and in my (admittedly limited) experience TC - while good - is not particularly better than Destijl. And they are both, IMHO, behind Eminence when it comes to quality.

We actually use 7 different build houses at this time (we maintain relationships with close to two dozen build houses), for the various drivers we offer (what we commercially offer is a small segment of what is supplied and offered to OEMs). We work with our current build houses because so far they have been able to produce the product we design, in the quantities we want, at a fair price point (not always the lowest cost, but at an acceptable cost).

Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio

 

Geo, the Scott M, that Seth was Reffering to, I think, was Scott masingill(misspellsed I am Sure) from oynx Audio

 

Hey Chris, please don't think I am doubting you at all on this. I'm just curious. How did you determine that it was offset?

 

Yeah. The main point of my post is whether this whole thing is being blown way out of proportion. I highly doubt it will effect the consumer. I also don't believe that Onyx will be effected. So there was something that went on that we don't know about within Destijl and any ideas posted are speculation. Destijl makes a public apology several times, so I think the public shouldn't worry about it. Now the issue is between Onyx and Destijl, which is a private matter.

I don't know. How many top plates, or the glues holding the magnets together actually come apart? I think they are VERY strong and that the chances are slim. But that's a matter of opinion, and I have to give your opinion more credit than mine since you are in a more experienced position being a manufacturer yourself.

I guess I was posing a possibility that some may not see. But you do have a good point. It's really hard to say.

<!--QuoteBegin-geolemon@Oct 7 2003, 06:11 PM

There is potential harm done here.

Onyx has chosen to end it's affiliation with Destijl, for many reasons, that may be known or not, publicly (and privately, between them and their investors).
They have reasons for ending that relationship.

Discovering Onyx-branded parts on Destijl drivers might imply to some that Onyx hasn't ended their relationship with Destijl, and depending on who you are, and what your affiliation with Onyx is, that might be quite bad - particularly if you had made investments with Onyx on the contingency that they no longer affiliate with Destijl.
Potentially worse, an Onyx investor might even view this as a sign that the company is in trouble... maybe Onyx sold Destijl the parts, because they are in financial trouble, and need every penny they can get?
[/quote]

Very good points. I didn't think of those. But I still doubt that those would offset the business they get from this free advertising. After all, this is being talked about over many different boards and as long as they handle themselves right, which it seems that they are, this should be positive for them.