Well, welcome to heaven. Ok, not quite, but surely, this is the closest I’ve been when subwoofers are the topic of conversation. I’ve heard quite a few subs in “my day”, and I also own quite a few so continued comparisons are possible in many cases. As some background information, the nicest sounding sub I’ve heard has been a tossup between a Infinity Beta12x and the JBL W12GTi. Both were highly accurate with good low-end, quick, and all around just pretty sounding. There is a new King, and he comes in the form of an aluminum coned, double magged, copper filled pole 8” beast. As many of you know, I like 8” subs…. A lot. They are fun. They are pretty. They are sexy. The bigger they are, they better. Now, this isn’t the biggest 8” sub I own…. That would have to be the Elemental Designs 8ax, which is certainly a monster. However, it’s a close second. First, the sub: This little guy is a project first conceived off by our very own Warbleed. We sometimes talk about these crazy, outlandish, very attractive idea’s he has. This one actually came to light, eventually. I expressed some interest so he took the next step and talked with Stephen Ponte at TC Sounds about the possibility of getting one built. A couple weeks later a heavy little box appeared on my desk at work. Exactly how many design changes were gone through between those two points, I really don’t know… But I must say, the final product is quite attractive. Here are the specs that I was provided with by Stephen P. Qts - 1.231 Qes - 1.587 Qms - 5.483 Fs - 43.086 hz Res - 2.35 ohms Ls - 289.7u Lp - 1.562m Rp - 1.086 Dia - 188mm Vas - 19.64 litres Mms - 75.16 Cms - 181.5u bl - 5.489 n0 - 95.21m SplSens - 81.78 The Box: A simple sealed box of about 1.2 cubic feet before the displacement of the sub. A wee bit large (especially for an 8), but it provides for an excellent low-end and good efficiency. The Amp: Cadence Z7000 running at 4 ohms… So I guess it is supplying in the neighborhood of 350-400 watts rms to this SVC 4 ohm sub. I’m using the crossover on the amp. The source is a Eclipse 5443 deck. Also used is a 12 cd Eclipse changer. There are no processors inline. The rest of the audio spectrum is simply a pair of Eclipse 6.5 coax’s ran off of a Denon DCA-660BL (100x2). Remarkably nice speakers for the price. On to the music. I must say that I had high expectations for this sub. Kurt and Stephen (especially Kurt) raved about its potential. It was to be a marvelous sounding sub, by all accounts, so I went into this 2 hour listening session with the marked goal of finding every one of its problems. I had a tough time…. Very tough. First on the list since it was already que’d up was Creed’s My Own Prison CD. This is one of my favorite albums ever. Its recording quality isn’t anything special, but musically, I love it. The first thing I noticed was the contact noise of the kick. It was a little overbearing. However, this is one of the issues I have with CD in general, and its not surprising that I encountered this…. Really, a lesser sub would have done a better job of hiding this, therefore showing some of the transparency of this driver. Next in the CD cartridge was Deftones White Pony album. Track 2, “Digital Bath” was where I first settled. The first thought that crossed my mind after “turn it up you dope” was “Wow. This is what a kick should sound like!” It was solid. It was extended. It was NOT over blown. It was forceful and it was authoritative! It told me who was boss, and it demanded attention. The next thing I noticed was a lack of noise… This sub is clean! Its transparent. I defy you to find some mechanical noise. Its simply not there. Compare it to my 8ax whose 8 layer coil is a noise nightmare and this thing is as quiet as feather falling on to a pile of soft, fluffy pillows. Sidebar: I’m not degrading the 8ax… They are just built for VASTLY different purposes… One is a power hog made to be ported, and get loud. The other is pretty much its exact opposite. The next cd to go in was SR-71’s Now You See Inside. This cd is the definition of pop rock. However, its catchy and the recording quality is out of this world. It’s a staple in my ‘SQ Testing” handbag. The first track, “Politically Correct” come roaring in via a kick it at 0:21. Accompanying it is a classic “rock rumble”. Very low, very trying on small subs. I swear to you, I’ve never heard such impressive sound from a small driver. Sure, it didn’t have quite the output as the 8ax with 1500 watts in a PRed box, but it wasn’t far behind. The difference? It was FAR cleaner, without distortion, all the way up. Friends, this was impressive. The bass line was warm and buttery smooth, and the kick was jarring and forceful. It was at this point that I really started to realize what I had in the back. This was the best I’ve heard this song sound, sub wise. And folks, let me remind you that I’ve heard plenty of subs. Lets talk Tantric. A superb band. I’m a sucker for baritone vocals, and this chap has Scott Stapp beat. Track 1, “Breakdown”, 1:02 into the song there is a monstrous double drop. The first time I experienced this was when I was working in a warehouse at a local AV Rental place. I had rigged up half of the large concert stock to listen to while I worked, including the 8 18’s. It was fun. Guys, I wasn’t sure a sealed sub could drop this low… Now, let us remember that this is an 8” driver, not an 18”. The dual hits were very very distinct, very clean, very separated. There was no overlap, no fluff. It played what was there, and then it stopped. Nothing more. Perfect. Perfect. Anyone familiar with this cd surely knows track 11, “Hate Me”, has perhaps the lowest, most “in your gut” bass drops in modern rock. They come packaged in a succession of 4 bass notes that must have some synthesized bed to them, but based, of course, on a kick drum. I had never before noticed that each one of this tones was a flam… that is a drumbeat consisting of two almost simultaneous strokes of which the first is a very rapid grace note. We’re talking some quick double pedal work. No other sub that I had listened to these on was capable of separating those two distinct contacts enough to be heard easily, yet, there they were. Can you say detailed??? It sure can.. This was clean, low, distortion free, shake your bowels bass. A quick stop over to Matchbox 20’s “Real World” from Yourself or Someone Like You. Again, my first though was the lack of distortion… It was just so clean! The bassline blended beautifully with the stage. It was just plain impressive, folks. On to Linkin Park… Track 4, “Lying From You” off of Meteora…. You all know it…. Its got the impressive du-dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. The one that can make you squirm a wee little bit. Ya, that’s the one. Let me just directly quite the notes I took (yes, I took notes) “so tight, so controlled, as low as the TBs, better control, better tone, superb output considering…. wow” For those that don’t know, I have a largish box with 6 TB8’s in it that continues to blow me away (quite literally). They sound very very good and have output that rivals my BP1803 in a ported box… This single 8 has it beat in accurate reproduction by a good margin. Folks, I was impressed. Ok, the last cd that I will talk about here. Epics. This is a Telarc recording of the Cincinnati Pops Orchestra consisting of epic movie tracks. It has everything from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon to Gone With The Wind. “2001: A Space Odyssey” starts with a bass tone that has got to stretch down into the low 30’s and carries for the whole track. Its constant, and its ever-present, and its murder on subs when you feed lots of power to them. This sub handled it like a champ. There was rumbling from deep within my car that never wavered. It almost sounding like I was sitting in the studio at work with the BP1803 and 1400 watts behind it. Track three is from Gladiator and qualifies as a bottom dweller. It takes a good sub to hang out this low and keep its composure. The only other subs I have that will hang this low are the BP1803 and the 8ax. I suspect the SP’s would too, if they were operational. I can not put into words how impressed I was, and am. The track from Crouching Tiger, Hidden has been the death of another one of beloved subs…. The only driver to have died accidentally since my very first set-up that consisted of “Hardstyle” 12’s way back in early high school. The ending of this track, number 5, is simply incredible, and for reference, I’m really talking about the last 50 seconds or so. There is a definite tympani presence, but there has got to be an accompaniment by some other, very large diameter drum. This is a drum roll! If this won’t push your sub system to the limits, nothing will, and this 8 handled EVERYTHING that was thrown at it. One can tell when a sub is having trouble doing what its asked to do… Sure, the volume may be there, and the tone may seem to be there, but it just sounds off. I’ve heard it in many of subs. For instance, my e8a. It’s a GREAT driver. I love that sub, but it isn’t of this caliber. It will go through the motions, but like a small block Chevy running at 6k rpms, it just sounds like its having trouble. This simply did not exist with the aluminum coned beast. I sat there in the back of a Kohl’s parking lot in absolute awe. This was very well the most impressive moment of the entire session. I’ve got a good 3 pages of notes that I won’t bother to go through, because it all says the same thing. So instead, I’ll just sum it up with a few choice words/phrases that I’ve already used… Low. Controlled. Authoritative. Infallible. Transparent. Distortion Free. No Flutter. No Fluff. Warm. Impressive. Smooth. Simply Incredible. Simply Amazing.
Man, I'm such a huge fan of very efficient , medium to high output subwoofers. Since I know it, but they don't, what's the anechoic F3 of that sucker sealed in a cube?
My friend used to run those. I went with a/d/s/ subs instead. His got a little louder while mine sounded slightly better IMO. They were definitely my favorite sub till I got the one I have now. I'm glad you like the driver. The parameters look a little crazy in places, and when modeling it I couldn't get a decent Q in any kind of realistic enclosure. Do you know any specifics of the motor? Anyway, what matters is that YOU like the driver. I'm glad you do. Are you planning on building more? And the most important part for us...................... GOT PICS????????? BTW, with post lengths like that, people may mistake you for Geo. Steven Kephart Adire Audio
There ya go Steven. And I might order one more... Doing an install for a friend who owns a multimedia company, but beyond that, i have no plans. Its not my design, so I really don't have any claim to it. I was just fortunate enough to have Kurt allow me to use his design, and Stephen was kind enough to build it for us.
Ok this is for Mike, Kurt and Stephen, I'll take one in a 15" version. Just let me know when ya wanna ship it. :jawdrop:
Looks very dipole friendly!!! That massive QTS will allow for a nice bump at driver resonance in an open baffel. The very nice thing about that (high QTS in open baffels) is it reduces the need to attenuate above driver resonance to smooth the responce, or to boost frequencies at driver reonance to make up for the imminent cancellation. Eliminating electronic filtering and/or boosting in any way is a benefit IMHO. I would be interested in knowing how well they do in a dipole 3 way HT set-up. Shame about the high FS, I would love to throw 4 8s in a dipole subwoofer system and blow peoples minds!!! Any plans for that? I know your Pro Sound background might make designing and implimenting a dipole like this a breeze.
That's actually an interesting thought, Seth.. I am planning on doing a dipole for at least the upper frequencies. Thumper, you said these aren't available for sale actually though, right?
They can be had, last I heard... Stephen was willing to make more for those who wanted to pay. I;ve had a lot of people contact me for more info on that in the past few days... go figure.
Got a dollars and cents figure? I might be interested in trying an open baffel and these look like a great driver to use as a springboard for the project.
Last I heard (several weeks ago) it was in the ballpark of $225 each... Stephen said that having to use 4 TP's on it threw off their inventory ratio quite a bit, which raises the price a little, I guess.
Hehehe, I've never known an 8 to be worth $225. Oh well, I'll just have to wait for another dipole friendly driver.
Well, Adire has the DPL12... XBL^2, 12", and dipole friendly (hence "DPL"). Honestly, I know no specs on it... but that's more your territory anyway. It's a purpose-built dipole bass unit. 12" might seem excessive... but by nature of being a dipole there's going to be some losses, so possibly the bigger cone driver makes more sense fundamentally. Just a thought. B)
The DPL does it a bit differantly. It is built around a silent design so as to eliminate mechanical noise and air "chuffing" around spokes, out of vents, etc. But rather than crank the shit out of the QTS they dropped the Fs so low that there should never be any information that gets low enough to cause cancellation. That would be a better way to go for me, but... I was thinking dipole full range, not just subs. Then I could go ahead and start looking into some 10-20WPC tubes B) . But at that kind of tube power I would be looking at big cost. I could go cheap, but I would be seriously considering really nice amps set up strictly for music, with HT duties being handled by the reciever amps. The bigger cone will make up for the losses, but in either case I think I would be looking at multiple driver set-ups if it were a sub I was after.
