I learned alot about myself and what goes on around us, Civic. Or maybe simply a release of the inhabitions that ttrap us in our percieved reality... What did you want to hear about?
Did you feel tripping was touching insanity or touching a new level of enlightment? When you trip you think of some crazy shit but the stuff that makes so much damn sense fucked up seems so godamn dumb when you are sober. Who is to say that those visions you have high are not truths that become concealed once you are sober again. The topic is so convoluted that I cannot even write anything; Im just sitting here and thinking, LOL. Tell me about some of your visions and what you came to realize. Do you feel those drugs permanently affected your brain? Doesnt LSD stay in your spinal?
Personally (as an outsider looking in... but having observed many users and abusers, including my own sister who was one of "the worst", locally here 'in her day' ), I think observance does confirm what the "shirt and tie guy" scientists tell the little kids in the classrooms... That is, doing drugs does kill brain cells... and the highs that you get are indeed from essentially a scrambling of the brain's signals. "hidden truths"? I think EVERY pothead movie ever made contained lots of self-poking, making fun of a stoned person's tendencies to come up with these "great ideas" that are SO off the wall, not feasible, not reasonable, not rational, not effective... that they are mind-bendingly funny. Other drugs do it differently... but the end result is at least the same in the abstract sense that you don't have better rational thought when you are high. IMO, the concept of "drugs make me think better" isn't logical. Any examples of "drugs made me produce some spit of genius" are coincidental... In fact, it also begs a very similar question to what you asked... After all, wouldn't it make more sense that the very concepts, the core of this "genius" was actually already in the mind - based on what has been experienced in life prior to that point - So is it sobriety, or inebriation that were the genius in that case?
I am not talking about weed or shit like ecstasy , Geo. I am talking about drugs that are often used for purposes other than recreation. Shrooms are often used for spiritual journeys and self exploration. To have a concrete opinion on this topic, I firmly believe you have to experience it for yourself. Its very easy to make assumptions while window shopping but to try on the dress is a whole different story. 95% of the realizations you come to on shrooms are by no means coincidenses, they are realizations you experience by looking at yourself at a level beyond that which is available to you in a sober state. I do not have a thorough resume with hallucinogens and the such but my few trials have proved themselves to be worthwhile. I am sure Seth will be able to elaborate on this more.
I dont want to go off on a Tangent and take away from the true topic, but I feel I must say this Given the Very Little Information was know about the Brain, I find it hard pressed to listen to anything the "shirt and tie" guys say infact over the course of the last decade, the "shirt and tie" guys from the prevoius generations have been proven wrong time and time again on all subjects of Medcide, including the effects of Drugs on the body Hell Just 30 years ago doctors RECOMMENDED smoking to lower bloodpressure
I think that Geo's point was to say that regardless of what you will seem to think about on the topic, you are destroying brain cells. Even alcohol has the same destruction affect, and it is not as hard on your brain as many of the drugs that have been mentioned. I think in another forum you mentioned something about the pills being philosopher pills or something of that nature, could it possibly be that the name itself is merely poking fun at te tendency some people have to consider themselves deep philosophers while on the drug? The term hallucinogens should also be taken into consideration. A hallucinogen could be anything that would block or hamper the minds usual process of thought..... Vicodin and many other prescription pills are considered by scientists to be hallucinogens, and those are meant to block the brain from reading pain signals. If their point is to some way change the brain reads signals, then does it not seem illogical that other drugs in the same classification would be able to give you momentary genius?
I think you have your Terms Mixed up Definations One entry found for hallucinogen. Main Entry: hal·lu·ci·no·gen Pronunciation: h&-'lü-s&n-&-j&n Function: noun Etymology: hallucination + -o- + -gen : a substance that induces hallucinations - hal·lu·ci·no·gen·ic /-"lü-s&n-&-'je-nik/ adjective or noun Main Entry: hal·lu·ci·na·tion Pronunciation: h&-"lü-s&n-'A-sh&n Function: noun 1 a : perception of objects with no reality usually arising from disorder of the nervous system or in response to drugs (as LSD) b : the object so perceived 2 : an unfounded or mistaken impression or notion
My point was, it is destroying brain cells... yes... But more fundamentally, the arguement that drugs can give you some sort of "enlightenment", or genius ability... I'm saying that's not possible, for several reasons: 1) all the knowledge that you have - from which your thoughts and realizations come from - you've acquired in a sober state. Once they are there... it's just memory recall, coupled with logic, essentially. 2) The brain is "working correctly" when sober. Signals travelling down the right nerves, lobes able to communicate with lobes. This is as good as the brain gets. Taking drugs effectively causes areas of the brain, and nervous system to malfunction. Think of it that way. 3) If you did acquire knowledge while not sober (any drug you wish), you might not even trust what you thought you acquired... because the brain wasn't working as normal... all systems weren't working normally. Which brings me to point #4: <!--QuoteBegin-fb4076@Mar 2 2004, 02:37 PM If their point is to some way change the brain reads signals, then does it not seem illogical that other drugs in the same classification would be able to give you momentary genius? [/quote] Which is exactly what my main point was: 4) It's not possible to make the brain work better, when you are under the influence... only worse. You won't have moments of genious.. you'll effectively have moments of stupidity, that make your current thought SEEM like tremendous genius at the moment. At the time, it seems like the best thought ever. That momentary lapse of intelligence (literally) due to your brain effectively not working at but a fraction of it's normal ability make you think that simple thought is the best thing ever. Enjoy that "I'm a genius!" feeling while it lasts... Because most of the time, later on, it sure isn't, in reality. And I say "coincidence" simply because different parts of the brain are damaged when you are using drugs... it's certainly not impossible for some rational thought to pop out, maybe something good. But are you saying that you couldn't come up with that thought sober? That's my point.
except that all of your guys statment relay on the fact there what people THINK happens in the brain, or how the brain works is correct... In truth there are still many many many unknowns about the brain, infact we only use a small percantage of our brains capcity, could thiese drugs somehow allow the brain to use MORE of itself??
There's a big difference between temporarily bringing your IQ level down to the point where a mediocre thought seems like tremendous genius, or spiritual realization... "Self exploration" by nature is an excuse to try to see the pretty colors and feel the funny feelings... True "self exporation" is something that can only be done sober, because that's when you are truly you. Different drugs affect different parts of the nervous system. And they do cause permanent damage as you use them. So of course, if you do different drugs, you'll feel different effects... That's all it boils down to. And as you try to formulate a logical response, backing up the "pro drugs" standpoint: Consider how you could argue that taking some drugs can enhance the brain's function, while taking more drugs can bring a person to a permanent comatose state, or even death? Or... possibly you'd give a little thought to if you'd even be able to formulate a logical response, if you were under the influence... and again, of whatever you feel like selecting. B) I think exactly the opposite... It's difficult to be someone having these drugged experiences, and actually understand what's going on... By nature, someone who is experimenting, is in denial of the very mechanism of what's making them feel what they are feeling. And that person is also in denial of the very thing they are experiencing, as odd as that may sound. Bear in mind, my decisions to NOT experiment are similar to what you might experience if you decided to play with your friends out in the middle of a 12-lane freeway during rush hour... your thoughts would be to get off and away from that road as quickly as possible, and especially if during the course of playing on the freeway several of your friends were struck by cars and died, while others were struck by cars and lost limbs or had head trauma with lasting psychological effects. I've grown up in an alcoholic family, with a sister who was involved with more drugs than I'm sure you could think about experimenting with. Rehab was only one of the institutionalized steps in her troubled life. I grew up in the punk rock and skateboarding scene... bear in mind this was the mid-80's through early 90's, the skateboard scene was much more rebellious and anarchic. I've lost two friends to simple overdoses, one quite close to me. Another of my friends moved way down to Arizona [with two other dropouts], and in a drug induced state, blew his head off with a shotgun.. that funeral was closed casket. Yet another of my friends lived on an adjacent street, but our yards backed corner-to-corner to each other essentially. In high school days, he overdosed on LSD to the degree where he simple disappeared for several days... One of my other friends (one of the most respected skaters in town, of the day) found him - dancing in a thunderstorm, in the rain, in the middle of the street, with his struggling cat, singing to himself. He went away for a while. It was over two years before he returned, and I'll just say he hasn't been close to the same since. The damage is obvious. Ironically, that friend who found him was once a 'straightedge' type of guy, in the high school years - and was a straight-A student. He went away to college, and started partying and experimenting with drugs... and got messed up in a major way. He dropped out of college, and for a while travelled with the James E Straits show, as a carnie. He travelled back to this area, moved into his parents basement, and now does nothing but play with music, and DJ at clubs. Again, when you talk to him now, you can see he's simply permanently dulled... his mental facilties just aren't there. ...and that's just the people that I know, personally. Enough experience for you? Or would you advocate that "I experiment before criticizing those trying on dresses in the windows of stores" (give that sentence some thought )? It can be damaging... You won't find genius or enlightenment from drugs... I'd advocate that you stop before it does damage you. What you should really focus on is a skill that I've been proud of for years... You don't need drugs to lose your inhibitions... You need to just... lose your inhibitions. B) If you are carrying around baggage, just take off.. I skateboard, or snowboard, or experiment with audio, or even simply participate on forums. It's another world. Maybe you could argue video games temporarily relieve that too (I don't think so, because I think the pressure of the game simply adds stresses). But at any rate, lose the excuse. If you are looking for genius, develop it. If you are looking for self-exploration, drop the baggage and think about what you actually personally like. If you take drugs, you are simply handicapping your brain... in one way or another (or your nervous system, in the case of crystal meth users, and no doubt other drugs, huffing type stuff). That's no path to enlightenment. And I'm the wrong guy to be acusing of not having gotten in the middle of things and seeing firsthand what it is like.
It's almost not even feasible to think of. (and if you do find it feasible... there have actually been a lot of studies done to explore this... and there's proof that there is less brain activity, not more) Bear in mind what I said about the brain working at full abilities when you are sober. When you start to damage it - intentionally or not - it's not going to work better, it's going to work worse. You aren't doing anything but temporarily handicapping certain areas of your brain or nervous system.. that's not going to enhance your brainpower. And it's been proven, that it doesn't. Again, try to make the argument... If taking some drugs allowed your brain to work better, how would taking more make it die? The drugs are a pollutant... taking some of them are obviously survivable (and the effects of the "not enough to kill me" quantity causing whatever damage might be interesting, sure!)... but the more you take, the more damage... until you do cross that threshold, and the damage is irreversable. Only sometimes is it a one-time "bang", overdose, damage done. The majority of the time, this damage occurs over time, by casual users who don't realize the small damage each time they use. Be careful.
Well... what exactly is this "deep shit" you are speaking of, specifically. I have been around many people that are on drugs that talk about ideas and such, and all that really comes out is something that is obvious, or makes very little sense. When they are sobered up, I have heard many say "Man, we were talking about some DEEP stuff last night" when in reality the depth was only something that the drugs made them think. While I have never personally experienced them, I grow up in them. I grew up in the county that Meth was invented in, it is also in the top 20 counties in the US for drugs, so I have had plenty of experience around them. Where is Sandt? I am interested to see what his reply is. If he would agree that the drugs give you this "genius," then why would he have POSSIBLY have wanted to quit? If the key to this supreme knowledge is drugs.... why would he no longer want that?
I never said that drugs are good for you, but if they arent abused that damge is basically non-existent especially on the permanent level. Philosopher stones are Shrooms not pills, there is a huge difference. Shrooms is considered one of the safer drugs, btw......You also cant OD on it....they are natural like weed. And shrooms among several drugs are used for the purposed of self-exploration and have been proven to be so. I would consider that making you smarter or at a minimum more aware. In other way it stimulates the brain in new ways, makes it work by a different method. Im not saying it makes more of your brain work, it makes it work in a new and different way. An unnatural way for the way it usually works. You cant use the "kills brains cells" argument becuase in the world we live in, there are plenty of other ways to kill brain cells. Things we are exposed to everyday.
I am just going to say this it was not even fesiable a long time ago that the earth was round it was not even fesiable people would like to be 100 years old it was not even fesiable that we were not the center of the universe it was not even fesaible that we would fly there are alot of thing, alot of people said "could not be" when infact they were Infact I think the one thing holding us back in every area is people can not "think out of the box" so we are stuck in the box, weather it is Medicine, Techology, whatever and Geo, you have to Eat to Live, But eating too much more will Kill you There are many many Drugs that keep people alive for instace Bloog Pressuse Meds, take too much you die or for a batter anology, Think of the brain as a PCB board, in it we have "componets" and "pathways" now the say the drugs somehow increase the effecany of the pathways allowing more electical current to more places faster, now if you increase it too much the brain overloads......... Now I dont know if what I said has any merit, but I dont know that is does not either Since no one knows how the brain works TRUELY, no one can really say All I know is, I dont believe we know as much as we thing we know about ANYTHING, from Space, to Time, to the simpliest parts of the body....
Eating to live is a totally different thing. If you die from eating too much, you are not dying due to the different reactions with the food. You are more or less dying because your intestines rip open. I do not really know if I would consider that to be the same as drugs.
Yep, well put. I'll get back to that after my disclaimer... First and formost, I do not condone nor reccomend drug use in any way. I am a recovering drug addict (clean for over 7 years now), who took recreational use and made it into a lifestyle. Due to excessive drug and alcohol use I was diagnosed with cirrhosis of the liver by the age of 23. The damage I have done to my liver eliminates most of my bodies ability to process iron, and adult onset diabetes will almost definately occur. I spent several sessions in drug and alcohol treatment programs, both inpatient and outpatient. I have overdosed over a dozen times and died at least 3 times. Drugs are no bullshit. They don't care about you in any way shape or form, and a users loss of inhabitions causes them to do the same with themselves. Addiction is not funny, and it doesn't only happen to the other guy. Mike is right on. Who here can say that the colors we see are not just our interpretation of reality? A learned or programmed reality. You say bullshit? Ask a deer what color a leaf is, or the bark on the tree, or the blaze orange suit the hunter wears is. Your perception of these things is most everyone elses perception, but a deer will see it in differant shades of grey. Who here can argue with the deer's perception? Is the animals unaltered perception incorrect? What about a turkey? Turkeys can most likely see more colors than you can, so is the turkeys perception incorrect, or is yours? Blow the dog whistle and ask a dog if it can hear it... now ask the guy standing right next to you. Who is right? Does it make a sound? Just because something is beyond your perception doesn't mean it cannot be. So do certain drugs alter our perception into a misdirected or incorrect reality, or do they bridge real synapses in our brain that we are programed not to bridge? Some of the things I have experianced on Peyote and LSD could possibly drive someone insane. I have seen, heard, smelled and tasted things beyond comprehension, and understanding (have you ever licked the air to taste the music? I have. Could you fathom that? Could you accept it and go with the flow, or would you freak out and have a bummer?). So, how can you say the brain doesn't build safety mechanisms to keep itself ship shape. The body does protect itself in any way possible, so why is it so impossible to believe that our perceptions are also defense mechanisms against insanity? I was waiting to respond to see peoples feelings before I answered, and shared my experiances. I took drugs to begin with as an escape. Eventually hallucinogens became more of a spiritual thing, and self awakening. They opened my eyes to alot around me, weather it was real or imagined they changed my perception of things (I mean outside the trip, not just durring). I started dropping acid at parties, and washing it down with cocain and orange juice (cocain is the only drug I have ever felt on acid (I drank a case of beer in 3 hours once on acid, and never passed out, never felt drunk, never slurred, nothing... no effect), and orange juice makes it more visual). I took a trip at a Grateful Dead concert with some Deadheads, who were spiritual. We tripped on Peyote and the first experiance was not a good one, we chewed buttons and I got violently ill. After I got back to normal (well, not sick )we began to search for who we were, and why we were brought together. We walked deep into the recesses of our minds and expressed fears, all the way up to desires we never knew we had. It was amazing, and it began my spiritual journey. I have gone so far as to trip in the desert in a Peyote ritual in a Tee-Pee with real Indians. The real stuff, no BS made up-kids for a goof party. I was actually involved in half a dozen of these rituals. They really made me think more about life. Durring the period in my life I was using them (and I'll say for almost a year after I quit) I had a tendancy to be more aware of myself and what was going on around me. I wrote alot of poetry and song, and they mostly contained the deep pain I was in at the time, and my fears of death due to my addiction. They were very introspective, and to this day when I pull them out I become deeply disturbed at how depressed, scared and alone I was durring that difficult period in my life. I have volumes of poetry and song I wrote durring that time. Now that my system is clean, I find myself more unaware of my feelings. You cannot tell me that the halucinogens affected me the wrong way. They opened my mind beyond the trip, and I believe they gave me the understanding of how I felt, and allowed me to climb out of my habit (crack, and meth). They gave me the understanding I needed to become a whole human being again. I'll await the arguements, and get to my insight later... Too much to talk about right now. That isn't even the tip of the iceburg.
Amazing! I would love to just sit down with you and hear what you have to say. If you want to quit smoking cigarettes or any other bad habit just take a hallucinogen and let someone tell you about the negatives that smoking has in store for you. You will quit smoking the next day! Like I said before, as long as you dont abuse it, you should be fine.
